Re: Recall failure Hi CDM, just wanted to say I'm also finding it really hard to proof recall and understand your pain! Bonnie sounds at about the same level as Bella (maybe not quite as good even). They're about the same age too. I've been walking her on the lead a bit more recently and we've been watching dogs from a distance. We watch for a minute and then I suddenly burst into life with a ball, excited noises and lovely treats! I take her off the lead and throw the ball away from the dog we've just been watching. So far, it's worked and even when she remembers the other dog is on the other side of the park, as long as I keep "whooping" and dancing, we're fine! : Also, today we went to a really beautiful country manor which had dogs and screaming children galore! As we walked in I thought, we'll never cope with this. And, just because she's still so dappy around kids, I kept her on the lead a lot of the time. Actually, she wasn't at all bad, didn't pull very often and walked nicely most of the way. We had some free run time as well. However, I felt it was a really good experience for Bonnie as she started to become desensitised to all the children and dogs. It was almost like she was thinking, "There'll be another one along in a minute!!!" ;D Because everyone was in a sunny, friendly mood we got a chance to practice saying hello nicely to people and other dogs. It was such good experience. I've asked a few other dog walkers round our way if they want to practice but they tend to look at me as if I'm mad. I've opted for a puppy class instead so that we can get a chance to just "be" around other dogs and then hopefully that will help with proofing the recall. My thinking is that as well as making myself more interesting, I'm making other dogs less interesting. I have no idea if this is a good strategy and would be interested to know what others think...! Today, I found myself looking enviously at other (older) dogs and praying B would one day be that chilled around crowds. Then a lovely guy (Lab enthusiast) came over and started praising Bonnie so much - her behaviour and her body shape!!! He said he wanted to take her home, kept saying "She's a proper Lab, such a beauty" and I was saying how difficult I was finding all the training and he said, she's just a pup, she's doing great and then I was all like proud parent about it! 8) I'm longing for the day I can take her out with friends and their kids and not worry about her jumping all over the place, pulling, licking faces, running away!!! I guess it'll come :-\ Good luck with Bella x
Re: Recall failure [quote author=Bonnie link=topic=10382.msg155625#msg155625 date=1428693091] Hi CDM, just wanted to say I'm also finding it really hard to proof recall and understand your pain! Bonnie sounds at about the same level as Bella (maybe not quite as good even). They're about the same age too. I've been walking her on the lead a bit more recently and we've been watching dogs from a distance. We watch for a minute and then I suddenly burst into life with a ball, excited noises and lovely treats! I take her off the lead and throw the ball away from the dog we've just been watching. So far, it's worked and even when she remembers the other dog is on the other side of the park, as long as I keep "whooping" and dancing, we're fine! : Also, today we went to a really beautiful country manor which had dogs and screaming children galore! As we walked in I thought, we'll never cope with this. And, just because she's still so dappy around kids, I kept her on the lead a lot of the time. Actually, she wasn't at all bad, didn't pull very often and walked nicely most of the way. We had some free run time as well. However, I felt it was a really good experience for Bonnie as she started to become desensitised to all the children and dogs. It was almost like she was thinking, "There'll be another one along in a minute!!!" ;D Because everyone was in a sunny, friendly mood we got a chance to practice saying hello nicely to people and other dogs. It was such good experience. I've asked a few other dog walkers round our way if they want to practice but they tend to look at me as if I'm mad. I've opted for a puppy class instead so that we can get a chance to just "be" around other dogs and then hopefully that will help with proofing the recall. My thinking is that as well as making myself more interesting, I'm making other dogs less interesting. I have no idea if this is a good strategy and would be interested to know what others think...! Today, I found myself looking enviously at other (older) dogs and praying B would one day be that chilled around crowds. Then a lovely guy (Lab enthusiast) came over and started praising Bonnie so much - her behaviour and her body shape!!! He said he wanted to take her home, kept saying "She's a proper Lab, such a beauty" and I was saying how difficult I was finding all the training and he said, she's just a pup, she's doing great and then I was all like proud parent about it! 8) I'm longing for the day I can take her out with friends and their kids and not worry about her jumping all over the place, pulling, licking faces, running away!!! I guess it'll come :-\ Good luck with Bella x [/quote] Thanks for the message! It's tough isn't it?! Luckily Bella is a bit timid with people and kiddie winkles so backs away and isn't interested. it's other dogs she loves I've also joined a puppy class but it's not great however I'm using the opportunity, as you say, for her to be alongside other dogs and not interacting ... She's getting better, today was all about lead work ( no distinction between collar and harness tho) and checking in , they all had to chant rhubarb then treat ... I had my clicker and used it as a chance to keep Bella focused on me. My friend is also going to help with recall proofing with her dog walking closer on a lead, we seem to be getting Bit better with distance, she ignored 2 other dogs today - looked over but then back to me , off lead too , they were far though , need to get nearer as that's when it all goes to pot . Keep me updated with how you're getting on!! I took a squeaky twig out the other day, she loves in the house, massive fail, she dropped it and ran after my friends dog. God I must be boring I need to get my tap shoes on and burst into song..... It sounds like Bonnie had a great day, well done ;D
Re: Recall failure Because everyone was in a sunny, friendly mood we got a chance to practice saying hello nicely to people and other dogs. It was such good experience. I've asked a few other dog walkers round our way if they want to practice but they tend to look at me as if I'm mad. [/quote] If you lived in Leeds I would be well up for it ;D
Re: Recall failure Ah, I'm a little further north otherwise you'd be on! Yes, be great to stay in touch and see how our pups are managing (and how we're coping!!) Sounds like Bella was great today with ignoring the two dogs at a distance. And it's good to know you've got someone to practice with. Well, our first puppy class was a disaster so we'll see what this new one (tomorrow) brings.... Sometimes I genuinely think it depends what mood Bonnie's in. Some days are definitely better than others. Oh and you're so lucky that Bella isn't interested in children. In fact, that's probably the most worrying thing for us.... she's still a bit bitey when she gets excited and loads of kids wanted to stroke her today. Anyway, we managed and it was a good day (thanks!!) and she settled down with my friend's three year old and sort of lost interest. I guess they learn as they grow up as well as the work we're putting in. Even so, get those tap shoes on!!! Sounds like a plan
Re: Recall failure Well.... Today we went to the woods, I took my clicker, clicked for check ins which happened lots so I didn't even need to use the recall command! I hid from her twice , felt so evil but panic set in, she was desperately looking for me and so pleased to see me ( I feel so bad doing it but it works!!!!) She also responded to my about turn walk, so much easier in woods) I also kept dancing about like a mad woman so she didn't even notice another dog go by on lead , granted behind a hill she couldn't see, but surely she would smell?!). Saw another dog but got her on the lead first... They sniffed each other but not sure if I should have not allowed that, usually don't.... but it was a tiny cute pug. Then...... end of walk another dog came out of nowhere ( god dammit!) .,, too late for lead so off she went, they both ran back and forth between me and other owner, I didn't bother with recall just grabbed her at first opportunity and off we went. I just worry that the more I put her on lead when I spot a dog .....the more likely she is to bolt off lead?! Also once I start recall practice with other dogs on leads... if Bella approaches ( likely) should my friend stand in front of her dog or not??
Re: Recall failure [quote author=CDM link=topic=10382.msg155835#msg155835 date=1428775367] I just worry that the more I put her on lead when I spot a dog .....the more likely she is to bolt off lead?! [/quote] There is no reason to think this would be the case. There isn't any reason for that to be the result. I think that dogs need some doggy interactions, so arrange playdates, or release her to play with other dogs sometimes, but your dog does not need (although she very well may be used to, and right now thinks it's a fine idea) to run up to every dog she sees to invite play. If you sometimes let her do this without releasing her to go, she will keep doing it. Preventing her from doing it while you train her will make it less, not more, likely. [quote author=CDM link=topic=10382.msg155835#msg155835 date=1428775367] Also once I start recall practice with other dogs on leads... if Bella approaches ( likely) should my friend stand in front of her dog or not?? [/quote] I am not quite sure I understand the question. Have you got Total Recall? The book takes you through step by step proofing a recall around other dogs.
Re: Recall failure Thanks. Yes I have it and it talks about distance then getting closer etc I'm just pre empting what my friend should do if she runs towards them.
Re: Recall failure Are you talking about an exercise to train her not to approach the other dog, or to recall away from the other dog once she has got there?
Re: Recall failure Recalling away ... I think I've just thought through and answered my own question eg 'go play' that's more rewarding than roast chicken or baby pouch sardines it seems, I need to take it right back to garden both on leads I think :
Re: Recall failure Yes, indeed, a release cue is very rewarding. But, in order to have a release cue, you need a proofed stay-with-me cue (eg walk at heel or "close") or much better, a default behaviour to stay close to you and not leg it to other dogs. The thing about recall and only recall is this: you have carefully proofed your recall in a series of set ups and your dog will recall away from another dog. Or even two or three dogs. He will even stop and recall when he is heading away from you at speed toward the other dog (that's great ). Then you go out on a walk when you can come across many other dogs, one after the other, and you have no control over what the other dogs (or owners) might do. Your dog spots another dog and heads off. You recall it. Your dog comes back for chicken, a game, whatever. As soon as that's done, your dog heads back to the other dog (or another one). You recall him. Rinse and repeat. And before you know it, your recall is ruined because you have used it again and again to call your dog away from fun. This isn't a good use of a recall. So you need to train three things: a default "stay with me", a "go play" release cue, and a recall away from other dogs.
Re: Recall failure [quote author=JulieT link=topic=10382.msg155889#msg155889 date=1428786780] Yes, indeed, a release cue is very rewarding. But, in order to have a release cue, you need a proofed stay-with-me cue (eg walk at heel or "close") or much better, a default behaviour to stay close to you and not leg it to other dogs. The thing about recall and only recall is this: you have carefully proofed your recall in a series of set ups and your dog will recall away from another dog. Or even two or three dogs. He will even stop and recall when he is heading away from you at speed toward the other dog (that's great ). Then you go out on a walk when you can come across many other dogs, one after the other, and you have no control over what the other dogs (or owners) might do. Your dog spots another dog and heads off. You recall it. Your dog comes back for chicken, a game, whatever. As soon as that's done, your dog heads back to the other dog (or another one). You recall him. Rinse and repeat. And before you know it, your recall is ruined because you have used it again and again to call your dog away from fun. This isn't a good use of a recall. So you need to train three things: a default "stay with me", a "go play" release cue, and a recall away from other dogs. [/quote] Ahhhhhhhhh so much to do I've got my work cut out for all 3 of those :-[ I'll keep working on check ins then introduce a cue eg close, then need to gradually introduce other dogs. But very helpful thanks ;D
Re: Recall failure [quote author=CDM link=topic=10382.msg155955#msg155955 date=1428826950] [quote author=JulieT link=topic=10382.msg155889#msg155889 date=1428786780] Yes, indeed, a release cue is very rewarding. But, in order to have a release cue, you need a proofed stay-with-me cue (eg walk at heel or "close") or much better, a default behaviour to stay close to you and not leg it to other dogs. The thing about recall and only recall is this: you have carefully proofed your recall in a series of set ups and your dog will recall away from another dog. Or even two or three dogs. He will even stop and recall when he is heading away from you at speed toward the other dog (that's great ). Then you go out on a walk when you can come across many other dogs, one after the other, and you have no control over what the other dogs (or owners) might do. Your dog spots another dog and heads off. You recall it. Your dog comes back for chicken, a game, whatever. As soon as that's done, your dog heads back to the other dog (or another one). You recall him. Rinse and repeat. And before you know it, your recall is ruined because you have used it again and again to call your dog away from fun. This isn't a good use of a recall. So you need to train three things: a default "stay with me", a "go play" release cue, and a recall away from other dogs. [/quote] Ahhhhhhhhh so much to do I've got my work cut out for all 3 of those :-[ I'll keep working on check ins then introduce a cue eg close, then need to gradually introduce other dogs. But very helpful thanks ;D [/quote] Me too, me too! Thanks for the great questions and the great answers ..... saved me a thread of my own! The rinse and repeat till you've lost your recall is really really helpful. CDM, you saw in my other post about the walking at speed and then straight into a sit exercise at class. I wasn't fully sure what the point of this was but I've been doing it out on the field today with Bonnie and I think it's really helpful for proofing sit. So we ended up running up the field (Bonnie sort of chasing me) and then I'd suddenly stop and put her in a sit. I think it was quite good because she was more excited than, say, waiting to cross the road, but there were no other distractions. Felt like I was proofing sit. When one of her mates (Poppy) came up for a play I managed to get Bonnie in a (very!) brief sit/stay before she went to play. Might be fun for you to try...
Re: Recall failure Sounds good Do you do sit until you release with a command eg 'ok ' Bella's getting better at sitting longer until released but again that with no distractions ....., but I've not tried it on walks yet, just at home and other peoples houses etc so yes I need to proof outside will give it a whirl ;D!! Very proud of her today, she kept checking in and chasing to keep up with us on our walk, saw only a few dogs and got her on lead just before, she pulled towards, but I didn't allow sniffs today. Ohhhh and she had her first taste of horse poo...loved it.... But did leave it when asked, in favour of a treat
Re: Recall failure [quote author=CDM link=topic=10382.msg155958#msg155958 date=1428827581] Ps Julie T will you come and help train my dog? ;D [/quote] Nope, my dog is still a hooligan and keeps me busy enough! ;D [quote author=Bonnie link=topic=10382.msg156113#msg156113 date=1428859674] The rinse and repeat till you've lost your recall is really really helpful. [/quote] I only know because I did it - ruined my recall. : Just trying to save you time... ;D ;D ;D
Re: Recall failure [quote author=CDM link=topic=10382.msg156120#msg156120 date=1428861113] Sounds good Do you do sit until you release with a command eg 'ok ' Bella's getting better at sitting longer until released but again that with no distractions ....., but I've not tried it on walks yet, just at home and other peoples houses etc so yes I need to proof outside will give it a whirl ;D!! [/quote] Yes, I use "ok" as well. I've just started trying to keep her in a sit/stay as I walk away from her (this is where we only got our C+ in class ) and for that I use her recall when I'm ready to release. I should be honest and say she doesn't like sitting outside. But the trainer on Saturday said if I ask her for a sit I must get one and not to let her off the hook! [quote author=CDM link=topic=10382.msg156120#msg156120 date=1428861113] Very proud of her today, she kept checking in and chasing to keep up with us on our walk, saw only a few dogs and got her on lead just before, she pulled towards, but I didn't allow sniffs today. Ohhhh and she had her first taste of horse poo...loved it.... But did leave it when asked, in favour of a treat [/quote] Nice one!!! Clever Bella. She's being excellent! And as for the horse poo - absolutely superb that she did "leave it".... Bonnie eats every kind of poo. It's awful. I'm starting to tackle that one firmly now as it's, well, ewwwww! I've started incorporating "head up" into our lead walking so that's helping with the poo issue. I'm never sure whether you should just go for zero tolerance with every kind of undesirable behaviour or whether you should tackle a few things at once and then incorporate more. The latter's what I've done but I do wonder if she's become so used to eating poo it'll be harder to break that habit. We've had some lovely, well behaved walks today. .... well, apart from first thing this morning when she showed an older woman her impression of a pogo-stick! Oh Bonnie ??? : ???
Re: Recall failure [quote author=JulieT link=topic=10382.msg156130#msg156130 date=1428862194] [quote author=CDM link=topic=10382.msg155958#msg155958 date=1428827581] Ps Julie T will you come and help train my dog? ;D [/quote] Nope, my dog is still a hooligan and keeps me busy enough! ;D [quote author=Bonnie link=topic=10382.msg156113#msg156113 date=1428859674] The rinse and repeat till you've lost your recall is really really helpful. [/quote] I only know because I did it - ruined my recall. : Just trying to save you time... ;D ;D ;D [/quote] It is most heartily appreciated!!!
Re: Recall failure So bit of an update .... The c and t check ins are working brilliantly ( as are the hiding behind trees). Tonight at puppy class she recalled straight to me from the other side of the room using my whistle and clicker INFRONT of 4 other dogs sat on leads with their owners, she didn't even look at them!!!!! Compared to lesson 1 where all she wanted to do was say hi to her canine friends, tonight she also responded to sit, lay etc , without pulling towards other dogs all the time, granted still the occasional whine / bark cos she wasn't able to go say hello ,mbut much better. The class is too basic for us as she knows most of whats been taught but the one thing I'm taking from this is training her along other dogs and not always wanting to go to the others so the 60 quid was worth that !
