Re: Riley's training log Yes, I thought the quick pee was a nought Fortunately, since Rourke has been castrated, that only happens very rarely if he feels a wee bit stressed.
Re: Riley's training log [quote author=bbrown link=topic=9765.msg155648#msg155648 date=1428698663] [quote author=Stacia link=topic=9765.msg155640#msg155640 date=1428698069] Makes entering a test even more scary! I always thought you started at 20 and got marked down, but then I heard you could get a big fat nought if the dog dropped the dummy out of water, even though he had done a perfect retrieve on the other half of that test, for example, fetch a blind on the bank first! [/quote] Yes there are transgressions for which you lose all your points and get a big fat zero. Probably what we'll get as Riley has a quick pee on each retrieve [/quote] How often does he do it, Barbara? And does he do it only when other dogs are present or also when you are training on your own?
Re: Riley's training log Hhmmmm he does it often enough to think he'd do it in a test and I'd say it's more related to pressure/uncertainty than anything else. So a new venue with new dogs it's a pretty high risk :-\ The test in June though is on our training grounds and the trainers are the judges, Annie is a qualified judge. So that will all be far more familiar. If i do the May test it will be as much for me to work out what happens on the day as for Riley and I won't worry about the score. I don't ever see an amazing competition career for Riley and I but these two tests are easy to get to and have friends attending. I have been thinking if there's any way I can try and increase his desire to get home(it predominantly happens on the return although if he's struggling to find he has been known to cock a leg but that's much more rare) but apart from using epic treats I'm a bit stuck......I can throw the steadiness away and get him really moving but no steadiness won't improve our marks any
Re: Riley's training log A clicker savvy dog will return with the retrieve at supersonic speed if you click the moment the dog picks up the dummy. There are some clickers which are quite loud and can be heard half way across a big field. Might be worth a try.
Re: Riley's training log I'll give it a go, thank you I wont be able to use a clicker in the test though will I? It will all have to be work done in advance.
Re: Riley's training log So this prompts a question....in order for this to work, Riley must not drop the dummy on the click. I've talked a various people about a clicker retrieve now. Some are absolutely adamant that if the dog does not drop the dummy on the click, you've got it wrong. Charlie does not drop the dummy on the click - in the kitchen or anywhere else, but he will continue to give it to me. 2 instructors thought that was fine, one thought not...
Re: Riley's training log [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9765.msg155995#msg155995 date=1428835969] So this prompts a question....in order for this to work, Riley must not drop the dummy on the click. I've talked a various people about a clicker retrieve now. Some are absolutely adamant that if the dog does not drop the dummy on the click, you've got it wrong. Charlie does not drop the dummy on the click - in the kitchen or anywhere else, but he will continue to give it to me. 2 instructors thought that was fine, one thought not... [/quote] None of mine will drop the dummy on the click. But I make up my own training program including clicker training and don't always follow the ideas of other trainers. Right or wrong, all of them return with the retrieve fast, so it works for me and my dogs.
Re: Riley's training log [quote author=bbrown link=topic=9765.msg155994#msg155994 date=1428835660] I'll give it a go, thank you I wont be able to use a clicker in the test though will I? It will all have to be work done in advance. [/quote] No, you can't use a clicker in a test.
Re: Riley's training log I think if my hand I out as a target he may bring the dummy back first but we shall see......its definitely worth a shot.
Re: Riley's training log Just musing, because it's interesting....not suggesting it's not worth a try, I'm sure it is. The dog should drop the dummy on the click, I think, not continue to hold and then wait for a release cue before getting a reward for a click he had a some time ago. Charlie does not drop the dummy on the click and I think this is because the chain was completed and the click - so very many times - has been for the dummy reaching my hand. So I do wonder what the outcome would be of shifting the click as many times...I have shifted the click too, for a pick up in the middle. I am completely unsure what Charlie makes of this, and indeed whether it is very effective once the whole chain has been built and rewarded. In doing this, I am definitely separating the click from the reinforcer, and I do wonder about this...
Re: Riley's training log I think that's probably the key to it.....the chain is built and the dog knows the dummy needs to go in your hand. I thought a click was a release it say you got it right exercise over but nothing about that says you must drop the dummy. Dropping the dummy is a consequence of providing a food treat surely. If you click fir a fast turnaround on a recall you don't expect the dog to stop coming because that's how they get their reward. So if they return with the dummy after a click from a distance that's ok too......
Re: Riley's training log I do think it's ok, but it's just interesting what the click means. There is a chain of behaviour between the click and the reward - return, hold, deliver. It's not quite the same as return on a recall for a treat (similar, I suppose, if you expect a sit in front though). In one version of the clicker retrieve, the dog must drop the dummy. You click for a nose touch, then a grasp, then a lift - and at all those stages the dog drops the dummy. When teaching the hold, it's the same. The dog drops the dummy on the click and never before the click. And there are some people that say this behaviour is an integral part of the clicker retrieve. Like I say though, 2 trainers I went to were not bothered by Charlie continuing to bring me the dummy. Jo Laurens though (and the person she trained with) would (actually did) say it's a big failing in my clicker retrieve. I see in agility that trainers click for a behaviour but expect the dog to carry on too...
Re: Riley's training log I'm going to grab my bravery in both hands here and disagree with Jo (and her trainer ) I think the click precedes the reward it just so happens that's commonly food. I don't see anywhere where a dog "must" behave a certain way after the click and often the placement of the treat is to induce (but not force) a behaviour such as get off the mat you're finding so rewarding so that I can start again. If the dog delivers the dummy and therefore allows a restart that's ok and as you've established that as a behaviour I can see no sensible reason why the dog would choose to do otherwise.....click for food reward and deliver for next retrieve reward.....it's a win, win, win, win (especially if you're Charlie!) I think where it might all get a bit sticky is if you insist the dog must behave a certain way after the click. As you don't have an effective way of reinforcing that as you've already clicked but if the behaviour is offered why not take it....give the food and another retrieve.
Re: Riley's training log But Jo and I disagree on recalling your dog with a retrieve in it's mouth too And can I just add I most certainly do respect Jo's experience and ability and the extent to which she shares those on Facebook she's offered enormously helpful advice to many including me, there's always more than one way to do things though ;D
Re: Riley's training log I am sure that a purist clicker trainer would shudder when they see my method and I agree the fast return on hearing the click is simply a by product, but to be honest, I don't care. ;D I have dogs who will return quickly from a retrieve without stopping, dropping the dummy or mucking about otherwise and who will deliver to hand each and every time, that's really all that matters.
It's been a busy spring/summer so I've been quiet online generally but I thought I'd share our experiences at a couple of working tests this summer..... .......the first one was an utter disaster. I didn't know where my good dog had gone, you'd think he'd never seen a dummy in his life and I was absolutely gutted. I took a week off and just went for some lovely walks and some soul searching wondering if I was just wasting my time trying to train him for Gundog stuff if it really didn't float his boat. We've slowly rebuilt our confidence since then and we went to another test yesterday......I was prepared to just get straight back in my car if he was the same as last time. It wasn't as hot though and there were fewer dogs and he seemed less wired from the start. Still a pain with other dogs but generally within the bounds of acceptability - I didn't want him disrupting other dogs tests! The first competitor out on the first test had a nightmare and didn't get a dummy back and my heart sank....this was supposed to be a nice easy mark to begin with! We were the last to go of 13 dogs and unusually the gallery could see the handler really easily so you definitely had an audience! There was quite a lot of handling going on and tales of what the challenges were as each competitor came back. It turned out it was a mark but the dummy thrower wasn't making any noise at all so lots of dogs were missing the mark. The competitor before us did a clever thing though and before the dummy was thrown out her arm down as if to send her dog. This meant the dogs looked down her arm and marked well so we did the same and it worked! Riley marked it well and when the judge said I could send him off he charged like a dog possessed! It was up a hill with a wood down one side and some variations in cover, small dips and a fallen tree all to distract the dogs and Riley did stop off in the wood I think (probably for a pee) but we couldn't see him so I just had to wait. He'd made distance when he appeared and hung a right across the top of the bank. I was just about to stop him when he turned back to the left, picked and pounded home for a VERY respectable 18 out of 20! My day was complete I could go home happy, he had performed as I knew he could and anything else would be a bonus! Off we went for our next test a mark over a ditch into long grass followed by a blind in the same spot. Line held both dummies picked effortlessly just a minor fumble on delivery for another 18...... Hunting exercise next, three dummies out and we had to pick two. First dummy was a doddle then we got a bit lost. The path into the area was well worn as we were last dog and unfortunately it took the dog to the left hand edge. I wasn't sharp enough to get him to the middle or right of the area and he started to get really loose. I couldn't get him back into the right place and so I made the decision to call him up while he was still listening to my stop whistle. I would doubtless need it later and I wanted to keep his confidence in me. This meant we scored a zero for this test but the judge allowed me to walk forward and have another go to finish with success which we did, she also gave us more help as we worked.....the judges really are lovely at these things! Next it turned out we had a mark over some water, I thought it was at the limit of distance for Riley but we gave it a good go. He had a little waver almost at the edge but made it out. The bank was short but quite steep. I gave a hunt whistle as he clambered out as the dummy was on the steep bank and he turned at the top, came back down and picked! Now to get him back in the water!!!! Several dogs had run the bank although they couldn't get round and some hadn't made it across so we were doing better that I thought we would! He came back into the water straight away and swam straight home. I popped a recall in when he came out of the water to try and avoid and shaking or peeing and he delivered perfectly 19 points thank you very much judge! That was as good as it got though as the next test saw us with a very mediocre 13 due to some poor marking on my part, an average heel and a quick pee from Riley while I did a poor job of getting him to the dummy. Running in on the final test a paired walk up with a mark in front and a blind behind saw us with another zero but again we were allowed to finish the test. Luckily as we the last of an odd number our partner wasn't being scored so our run in didn't spoil anyone else's retrieve. We were supposed to turn for the blind first and as I took a step my over excited boy legged it! He got his back legs caught on my foot and came to a standstill. The judge was impressed with my rugby tackling skills.....no points were forthcoming though. We finally turned to take the blind which Riley picked perfectly and then the other dog took the mark. We swapped places and we did an ok but not brilliant job of the mark. Two zeros left us pretty near the bottom so we didn't do much better than our previous test however many weeks ago but it was like chalk and cheese. On his day he's really pretty good. If we can get some consistency over that so more days are good than bad and fix the few problems highlighted I don't think we'll ever win but we'll do ok. I'm very pleased we actually did ourselves justice on some of the tests and more that neither of our brains melted into our boots this time!!! Now when's the next one?.......
Sorry for all the typos.....gotta love an iPad spellcheck. I'll fix them later, just off out with my dogs!
Well, a bit of a mixed bag, but it sounds like you both did really well for a large part of it, so I hope you're really pleased and can take the positives. Like you said, it sounds like you just need to work on a bit of consistency, but the fact that he can obviously do the things you're asking is fabulous, even if it's not perfect each time yet. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that... You're very brave entering this sort of thing. I would be a nervous wreck!
Well done Barbara, I think working tests can be extremely nerve racking; it's amazing how your heart starts pounding and the adrenaline running. This communicates to the dog as well, so if you can learn to treat it as just another training session then there is less chance of your dog getting hyped up. That's the theory, anyway! We've got a working test lined up at the beginning of August and I'm already nervous...
Thanks for the write up Barbara,I can really tell you've had a great confidence boost,it's been valuable just for that.....but then on top of that you put in great performances tok,so there's some things to work on,but isn't there always glad you enjoyed yourself this time and are so motivated for your next x
