Should dogs be allowed in bars and restaurants?

I think that the words "well behaved" lie at the crux of the matter.

I was recently having lunch with a friend at a Garden Centre. At the next table was some litte black cutie dog. Only it wasn't at the next table, it was on a lead and allowed to roam to the extent of its lead. At one point it put its paws on my knee, at another it's paws appeared on the edge of my table. God knows why the woman took it into the cafe, she made absolutely no attempt to control it.

A little later another customer rose to leave, from under her table came a Spaniel that I had been totally unaware of.

When my children were little going out to eat was a massive treat. We only went to chains like "The Harvester". They say and ate nicely, and we're not allowed to leave the table and runaround, because that is how we behaved at home.

You cannot expect dogs or children to know how to behave in public places "straight out of the box". I will cut any amount of slack to people who are trying to teach their kids & dogs. Those who cannot be bothered about the impact their charges behaviour on other people should be asked to leave.

If you have paid good money for food and drink it is your absolute right to enjoy it in peace and quiet.

I guess it is back to good old training you only get the dogs/kids you earn (and training is long, hard work).

 

You have hit the nail on the head Molly.

This can be a real problem for guide dog owners. Their dogs are not just their companions, they are their mobility, their eyes, their safety. Uncontrolled dogs in a public place distract the guide dog and this presents a real, sometimes life threatening, danger to the owner. In the worst cases the guide dog has been attacked and then had to be retired.

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Well....I've just googled for surveys on problems for guide dog owners, and the top problem seems to be being refused access to places where dogs are banned because people misunderstand the law. If dogs weren't banned.....

 

I agree that for the most part it is down to behaviour. On a shoot day, for a late lunch, there can be as many as eight trained dogs in our local pub, all lying quietly under tables, and for the most part, pub customers simply admire and appreciate them. Yet it is possible to go in there in an evening and find one untrained dog making a nuisance of itself, begging for crisps, and even barking at customers. It is the same with children, as regards behaviour. A well behaved child will hardly be noticed. It is the once who are unsupervised that cause the problems

I have raised four children of my own and I have no problem sharing a restaurant with well behaved children during the day, but if they are running around the restaurant, I would probably just leave.

In the evening I want to have adult fun. And I can have an adult conversation in front of my dogs without giving them nightmares. Having children in a group totally changes the group interaction, and not always in a good way. And as a parent, when you have paid someone to babysit your own kids so you can have grown up fun, it is pretty galling to then have to spend the evening entertaining someone else's.

But as Helen says, we can't really compare children with animals in every respect because children are people, and they are our future, even if they are annoying at times. And when you are traveling with children you often don't have any choice but to take them everywhere with you.

It is good that most people are tolerant, because even the best behaved child will have a melt down occasionally, after a long day or not enough sleep. Happily dogs don't tend to do that so together with the fact that they have no idea what I'm talking about and won't repeat my conversations to their teacher at 'show and tell' time gives them vote as better pub mates over all

I think separating dogs from eating areas, which was very common when I was young, arose as a food hygiene thing, but I suspect it doesn't have any basis in fact. You are probably no more likely to catch an infection by having your food contaminated by a dog in proximity to your food than you are by stroking your dog. This doesn't help people living in dog free homes, but for those that have a dog at home, it is a factor.

Fortunately there are enough places to go where dogs are not allowed for all those who prefer to eat and socialise without animals. For those that want to take their dog with them, where I live there are plenty of rural pubs where dog are welcome, I don't know if the same applies to town centres, but I am guessing probably not.

 

I know....why don't we have 'good pub dog' qualifications? (I don't mind if we have ones for kids too!)

Owners and dogs (and kids, if you like) can take a little test - the owners can demonstrate that they can tie a reasonably short lead to their chair, and the dog (or kid) can demonstrate it can settle down in a pub, then they can get a little sticker that lets them in...

 

Yet another reason why dogs are better than kids!

 

At the moment my Twiglet will not settle in pubs, cafes and restaurants! Once she's had her chew she's up, down, up, down wanting to know what I'm doing/eating/who I'm talking to. This doesn't cause problems for anyone except me. But her brother does - he's a barker! Of course his puppy walker takes him out as soon as he starts, and he is improving. Twiglet will learn to settle but Gypsy was far, far better than her at this age. Meanwhile it means I have to go to lots and lots of pubs, cafes and restaurants - poor me

(Good thing she doesn't understand what I'm saying with the constant comparisons to Gypsy either!)

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I didn't say anything about a hygiene risk simply that I do not feel I should have to tolerate an animal in an eating area whether it's several metres of several inches away from my table because I am paying for a meal that I don't want to find stray dog hairs in, put up with dog slobber and dog smell. So maybe there is a hygiene risk.

Children have the right to be in eating areas but I don't think dogs do. It's simply how I feel and no more

I wonder if you might consider that things aren't always what they seem. Some children may have learning disabilities, they might be deaf or with foster carers and like my own son have Autism which being in new social situations is very challenging and sometimes frightening. There are dozens of reasons why children appear to misbehave. Just because a child isn't in a wheelchair or has a visible disability doesn't mean there isn't one. Of course sometimes children simply misbehave but thats how they learn. I agree with others, my children sit and do not leave the table until we are ready to leave, unfortunately not all parents agree with this.

I look at that if I hadn't been able to take my children out to eat or fly they would never have learned to become well rounder adults, so this is my training for the future just as you take your dogs to obedience or gundog training to help them to behave.

Just to add I have seen some absolutely shocking behaviour from adults in restaurants infront of my children but that's tolerated. My own daughter Grace who was a waitress during her University holidays was treated terribly by some customers as if she were a second class citizen, consequently she gave the job up due to this unacceptable behaviour. I was on a flight with all of my children, a women was sitting with her partner and two children, when the cabin crew brought everyone their meals she yelled at her picked up the tray of food and threw it at her. Absolutely terrible for everyone that witnessed this behaviour including my own children. When we landed in Washington the police were waiting and arrested her. All the children on that flight were behaving

 

My point is that I think you should be able to take your child into a pub or restaurant. I completely understand why you want to do that, and why it's good for your child to do that. I also won't shoot annoyed looks in your direction if your child screams, or makes a fuss (I might quietly shuffle away, but that's all). Because I'm tolerant of you and the fact you have children, and understand you are a family unit and families want to do things together. It doesn't matter whether or not the child has a disadvantage and that's the reason it's behaving as it is - I still wouldn't be rude to you about it regardless.

I just want others to tolerate what I want to do too - which is take my family, that has a furry member, to places.

 

Point taken Julie and I do understand I am very tolerant of people that take there dogs into eating places and I would never be rude to anyone, I'm just not too keen on it x

 

Now, off to walk to Argos to pick up an item my OH ordered online - it's a 40 minute walk there and back, and I can go through the park. Argos has no goods on display in this store, it's one of those pick up centres, so just catalogues and a collection desk. Can I take Charlie with me? It'd be an extra walk for him. But, sigh, no....

 

Take OH he can hold Charlie whilst you go into Argos, everyone is happy!!

 

OH is working, which is why I said I'd go.

Maybe they could provide a crate just inside the door so you can leave a dog safely for a few minutes...I'll drop a note to them online. Maybe they just haven't thought of that. They sell dog crates, so they have already got the crate.

 

If you've paid online maybe a member of staff would be kind enough to take Charlie whilst you nip in to collect your package?

 

Maybe.....they wanted to get rid of me very quickly from online chat. I think they thought I was a bit mad...

Note: Argos respects your privacy and our chat experts cannot view your screen.
2:05 pm
Danielle,
Hi, you're through to Argos live chat, you are chatting to Danielle how can I help you today?
2:06 pm
You
Hello. Can I take my dog into one of your stores when I collect an item? It's a 20 minute walk, and I'd like to take my dog along.
2:07 pm
Danielle,
I'm very sorry dogs are not permitted in stores unless they are assistance dogs
2:08 pm
You
Ah, that's a shame. Why is that?
2:10 pm
Danielle,
This is due to health and safety as some of our customers may be afraid or have allergies also due to waste
2:13 pm
You
Oh, ok. Health and Safety. Thanks for your help. Can I make a suggestion please? You sell dog crates. You could provide a dog crate just inside the shop and people could pop their dog in it while they collect something. One dog at a time, obviously. Could you pass that suggestion on? I'm sure lots of people with dogs would love it, and it might even be good for business.
2:13 pm
,Srr
2:14 pm
Danielle,
I will certainly pass on your feedback
2:14 pm
You
Sorry - I meant to say, because it's not safe to leave a dog tied up outside, they might be hurt by someone or stolen.

Danielle,
At the end of this chat a short survey will appear for your feedback on our chat today. I would appreciate your feedback
2:14 pm
Thanks for chatting today, bye now

 

I am surprised you cannot take a dog into Argos, it is not as if they sell food. That does not seem to make much sense. I can understand why some people take to getting fake assistance dog jackets when rules are so silly. If my dog can sleep under my chair while I eat in the pub, yours should be able to collect a parcel from Argos. It's illogical.

 

People who are scared of dogs or allergic to dogs aren't scared of or allergic to assistance dogs, you understand....

 

I bet it's all about litigation - it usually is

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You could try asking to see their health and safety risk assessment relating to allowing dogs in the store and upon what evidence the assessment is based. It's illogical to claim that people could be frightened or allergic to dogs but allow assistance dogs and claim its all down to H&S - it's statements like that that get H&S a bad name

 

Well, Charlie takes a dim view....what a waste of a walk if the dog can't come, he says.

The Kennel Club needs to do something about this - they need to include a test in the Good Citizen stuff to demonstrate that a dog can stay under control, won't annoy people, and won't pee on anything in a shop, cafe, bar etc. Then you should get a little badge that says "my dog is shop safe" and the KC should lobby retail businesses to let in dogs that have the badge. If people with dogs spend money with dog friendly businesses, and start looking out for them, businesses will start wanting well behaved dogs, there would be a virtuous circle....and more dogs would get trained.