This was posted on the positive gundog facebook page, and I thought it a very good article. http://nancytanner.com/2015/01/18/shutting-a-dog-down/ It's something I'm interested in (interested in avoiding "shutting down" at all costs, that is) and I watch out for it in how people handle their dogs. I see a LOT of pet owners do it by using intimidating tone of voice and body language. I last saw it on the beach - Charlie was playing with a cocker spaniel pup and it was time to go. they both ignored the first request to come away. I did nothing, waiting for Charlie to return his attention to me. The pups owner, towered over his dog and demanded that he "Sit up! Sit up! Sit up!". The puppy complied, slightly shaking, and the owner looked pleased with his obedient dog. That dog was "shut down" very effectively. I was happy for my hooligan to calm down on his own, then decide to come over to me. I particularly like the bit where she says "a calm puppy is not anything I would expect or look for and for sure not an adolescent dog. Calm comes from time, maturity and consistent information over time".
Re: Shut down dog Great article. The part about play has really resonated with me - no doubt, I started my training journey being too serious and, as much as I don't think I expected too much from the puppies, my seriousness probably made it a bit more stressful for them than it needed to be. The difference I have seen in their attentiveness and willingness to interact with me just in the last week or so when I've been focussing a lot more on playtime during walks has been tremendous. I need to learn how to play different games with them and make every training session about fun for us both. Treats as reward are great, obviously, but making the process fun means it's its own reward. I like the idea of the use of music and movement in training, too. Not sure how I'd go about integrating that since most of our training is done outside. Maybe a boom box on my shoulder?
Re: Shut down dog I enjoyed the article too and definitely saw myself in it when life and training has been less than fun and I've had a shut down dog. I'd like to think I've improved since then and hopefully have happier dogs as a result. The quote about the puppy behaviour is especially relevant as I can see what it would take to get Obi to behave and it's definitely somewhere I want to get to gradually because he wants to do those things rather than pressurize him into certain behaviours......
Re: Shut down dog Yes, when Charlie was young and I was very unskilled (I'm a bit better now, but still not skilled) I think I managed to have him "shut down" once or twice. Not often, but I look back on those incidents and shudder. [quote author=Stacia link=topic=9622.msg138975#msg138975 date=1422007187] Wish I could shut my dog down! He is full of life and vim and vigour despite me! [/quote] You are to be congratulated on having a dog that is so happy and confident he can't be easily shut down. A lot is about the dog's personality too though. Of course.
Re: Shut down dog I've done it too Julie . I think it came about from having two strong and boisterous male dogs (a bit like Stacia's) - the way I used to work with them was too much for Poppy. My training style has changed dramatically.
Re: Shut down dog I think it's important to be honest with ourselves about how we work with our dogs and how we want to work with them. I get frustrated with the discussions on Facebook around what is and isn't punishment. I suppose as a relative newcomer to dog training I don't have to look back on many years of working in that way which must be hard but I would think it's more about moving forward than dwelling on the past. I've made plenty of mistakes in the short time I have been training but I file them in the "don't do that again" folder
Re: Shut down dog Yes, I agree. I think it is difficult for treaditional trainers though - I now look back on my 20 years or so working with horses in horror. I wasn't a bad person, and I was young, and training with "great" trainers. But it wasn't positive, at all. I find it difficult to think about now.
Re: Shut down dog [quote author=bbrown link=topic=9622.msg138994#msg138994 date=1422012729] I think it's important to be honest with ourselves about how we work with our dogs and how we want to work with them. I get frustrated with the discussions on Facebook around what is and isn't punishment. I suppose as a relative newcomer to dog training I don't have to look back on many years of working in that way which must be hard but I would think it's more about moving forward than dwelling on the past. I've made plenty of mistakes in the short time I have been training but I file them in the "don't do that again" folder [/quote] Hear, hear! You may already know I have a part trained dog that also works in the winter. I used to get really stressed with her when she wasn't doing the business, but let's face it, she was never going to do the business properly ie like a FTC because she's only part trained and that's not going to change much now. We have fun these days because the only shoot I work on seems to have accepted us both as ok and the folk on it actually think she is not too bad contrary to what I think. In fact sometimes other dog handlers have said they wish their dogs would do that "she's really good". ;D The reality is she's not, but she doesn't do any harm and some of the time everything clicks and she does well like a pro. I relax about it now and if she gets over excited, as long as she isn't disrupting anything I just let her get on with it. This generally happens if it's raining pheasants and any self control just goes out of the window. When it's all calmed down I get her "back". She pays attention and we do what we are really quite good at. "Lost!" And she's really red hot at finding and her tail is so waggy I think it will snap off. ;D
Re: Shut down dog Thank you for posting that link Julie it's very interesting. To be honest when you've mentioned a shut down dog before I've never really known what you mean. I had a good idea but I've never seen it. To shut down my dogs would take far more then I can or could bring myself to do. The same with my first lab. You've mentioned before about dogs shutting down when head collars are put on. Mine bounce about because it's time for a walk!! I know I was, probably still am, guilty of expecting too much and getting frustrated. I have worked on that a lot and now I can tell myself it doesn't matter how long it takes there's no rush. When I first got S&S I kept being told I needed to control them because they were two males and other inciteful information. I know, when they were young, I added to their nervous problems with people before I realised what I was dealing with. I let people try and make friends etc despite them barking and I was also very aware that a lot of people wouldn't want two young boisterous labs near them so when I should've encouraged them to go to people (those that weren't trying to touch them) I didn't. All of this was before I joined the forum I should add. They've never shut down though. I wonder if that has anything to do with their 'hyper' behaviour. They have far too much adrenaline and all the other chemicals produced racing around to be able to shut down. I'm guessing a nervous timid dog would be easily shut down. Mine are nervous aggressive I suppose. I don't like to use the word aggressive as it conjures up a certain image but I don't think there is an alternative term for it. :-\
Re: Shut down dog Yes, I am sure it depends on the temperament of the dog. Mine are happy go lucky dogs and perhaps know that I am not going to beat them up. They know that the fiercest thing I can do, just makes them laugh
Re: Shut down dog [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9622.msg139004#msg139004 date=1422020014] Yes, I agree. I think it is difficult for treaditional trainers though - I now look back on my 20 years or so working with horses in horror. I wasn't a bad person, and I was young, and training with "great" trainers. But it wasn't positive, at all. I find it difficult to think about now. [/quote] I totally know what you mean on this one. I'm really enjoying training Inca whereas I used to hate schooling horses and I put this all down to the difference in approach. With horses (and using traditional methods) it always felt like a battle, with Inca it feels like fun. Yes I still get frustrated on occasions but I find it easier to take a step back, analyse where I went wrong and come back to it another day.
Re: Shut down dog glad people found it interesting. I see it a lot, in "funny animals" on YouTube in particular! I also see it a lot on my walks - a poor pooch makes a "mistake" on Wimbledon Common and the owner (always embaressed by the number of people watching, it's a busy place) goes over the top with a telling off - resulting in a seemingly quiet dog (for a while anyway). I don't think dogs have to be nervous to shut down though - I was interested in gundog trainer #2 field trial dog who "couldn't take the pressure" of competition. That wasn't a nervous dog, and I don't think the author of the article is talking about nervous dogs - she gives the example of "running drills" in training. That's a really common thing to do, even by positive gundog trainers.
Re: Shut down dog [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9622.msg139023#msg139023 date=1422031112] I don't think dogs have to be nervous to shut down though - I was interested in gundog trainer #2 field trial dog who "couldn't take the pressure" of competition. That wasn't a nervous dog, and I don't think the author of the article is talking about nervous dogs - she gives the example of "running drills" in training. That's a really common thing to do, even by positive gundog trainers. [/quote] I do use exercises or drills in my training, I can't see how else I woul achieve anything training wise, but I have learnt to use them correctly without boring my dogs to tears. Especially the Clumber and the cocker need a carefully worked out plan so that the don't get bored and shut down. Pippa has written an interesting article about drills. http://totallygundogs.com/gundog-training-the-trouble-with-retrieving-drills-and-exercises/
