Slimdoggy have put another article up about Labrador breed standards / changes in body shape. This one also discusses the way working dogs have diverged from the breed standard
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment I will be checking back to see if this comes about: We continue to pursue this matter and have identified a number of the US Labrador Retriever Club (LRC) members, judges, concerned breeders and show dog owners that we will be contacting. We hope to gain their perspective on the direction the breed is heading and how they feel about the health of the animals. Good, that sounds good. I will be very interested - the conclusion may be exactly the same, but demonstrating an inquiring mind adds a lot of credibility and will bring more people along if change is the goal. I watched the video, and liked it very much.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=JulieT link=topic=4651.msg57111#msg57111 date=1393351192] I watched the video, and liked it very much. [/quote] Ditto. But along with reviewing breed standards, maybe we could also review and streamline what we call these divergent strains!! : Clare
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Good video. As she hinted in the video, I don't think that changes will come from the field side. But changes can come from the show side as long as judges start to change their interpretation of the Standards with encouragement from breed clubs. Would so love to see the show scene return to favouring the more moderate type.....
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Very interesting article and video. Could anyone expand on what the lady said about some field labs' 'lack of substance' affecting their joints? How does that work? Is it true that some have lost their waterproof coat? Is that very rare? Hmm. Interesting. (Btw how do you add a signature to posts?)
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment I guess it is just like Thorougbred racehorses - their bones are narrow and light and yet are under tremendous pressure from the speeds at which they travel. They are more prone to fracture than the bones of more solidly built horses. My guess is that that is the kind of thing she meant (going with her horse analogy!) but it's just a guess. I have certainly seen Labradors (but from show lines too!) that have a very short, soft coat without the cushiony depth, 'harder' feel along the back and the undercoat that they are supposed to have. I imagine that those undercoat-free, soft coats do not repel water very well. Never seen one after swimming though so again I am not sure
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Oh right, ok-so more related to fractures than the problems a bigger dog might face. Interesting. Re coat, I know what you mean now you've said that. I think I've seen labs like that. My dog has a really wavy bit down the back that's totally wiry, unlike the rest of her. Interesting. Thanks!
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment The best coats often have a bit of a wave (I've heard it said) and should feel 'hard' or 'wiry' down the back line Maybe the person in the video meant soft tissue injuries, not bone, arising from lack of substance....not sure. Be interesting to know what that comment is based on. Another issue that might be injury related is really straight shoulders and short upper arms (the bone above the elbow), both of which lead to dogs with legs that are positioned too far forward on the body and that are less effective at providing a spring-like 'shock absorption' action for the whole front end. Show dogs usually don't have an issue with this aspect of confirmation (as it's one thing emphasised in the Standards) but field bred dogs may do (based on photos I've seen anyway). Another area in which field lines may benefit from closer reference to the Standards.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=Rosamund link=topic=4651.msg57185#msg57185 date=1393374538] Interesting. Re coat, I know what you mean now you've said that. I think I've seen labs like that. My dog has a really wavy bit down the back that's totally wiry, unlike the rest of her. Interesting. Thanks! [/quote] I was told (by a show breeder) that the way you check for the depth and quality of the waterproofing is the type of fur along the upper back, but also - push your fingers into the fur, and run them along the fur in the opposite direction of the growth, along the dogs's side (below the top back fur but above where the fur changes again on the tummy). A good waterproof coat will stick up and stay stuck up as the reversed undercoat supports the outer fur. I have no idea whatsoever whwther this is right! But I do this to most labradors I get to pat (so I guess I believe it). I've met a few, but not very many, with apparently very thin or hardly any undercoat.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Yes, the hard coat is along the top of the back and this area doesn't have as much undercoat. The undercoat is found primarily along the sides, exactly as you've described.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment One of the dogs we train with, Nellie, is a very tiny, super-keen retriever. She has tiny little bones, is super fast, and very good. Her fur is quite thin, without the usual lab undercoat - she gets very cold in the winter and needs to wear a coat if she gets wet and has to wait without running around. She broke the tip of her tail once while playing. I doubt if she weighs 20 kg, but has a very good pedigree. Looking at her, I can see she has been bred for working tests and field trials. She wouldn't do well out shooting all day in the wet and cold - she is lacking the body mass and thick coat. Maybe she is the kind od field bred lab referred to?
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=Karen link=topic=4651.msg57247#msg57247 date=1393423640] She wouldn't do well out shooting all day in the wet and cold - she is lacking the body mass and thick coat. Maybe she is the kind od field bred lab referred to? [/quote] I guess so, it sounds like it - Labradors are not really supposed to be delicate little things, I don't think, at least in my mind. The extremes of both show and field seem pretty undesirable. I want a dual purpose labrador! Was so sad to hear the woman on the video say "that time has passed". :'(
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment I'm meeting up with them tomorrow for a dog walk (first time in ages due to her broken tail, and then Poppy's sprained wrist) - will see if I can get a photo. It's really astonishing how tiny she is. But SUCH a good retriever, is very successful in competitions.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment I haven't read the article yet... Will be doing so in a sec, I like to read peoples comments first. Karen - with regards to your comment about someone you know having a teeny tiny lab - my Penny is like that, she's 18.8kg fully grown and could actually stand to lose half a kg as she's looking a bit tubby!
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment I think that may be true in colder climates, but in the UK, many trial bred labs, including my own red lab, have this kind of conformation. And they cope just fine with cold water and a day's work in the winter Tess is built like a racing machine. She is fine boned and light with a much narrower chest than Rachael, and a slightly snipey long head, eyes located quite far forward (good for marking). Her coat is thinner than Rachael's, and her tail lacks the thickness and fat layer that Rachael's has. These types of trial dog are, as far from the breed standard in many ways, as the hefty modern show dogs are. And I think it is a shame. One of the reasons I opted for some show blood in my young lab was because I like the traditional dual purpose conformation. But I am in no doubt that the kind of lab I like is unlikely to be seen again in this country. At least, not in any great numbers. Each type has too much invested in the conformation that they have developed. Racily built working strain labs still cope well enough in cold water and cold weather to do a day's work, even in Scotland, their bidability, and intelligence makes them much easier to put through a training programme, and their speed and style wins competitions. Most trialling folks think my Tess looks great. Most members of the public can't even figure out what breed she is.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=editor link=topic=4651.msg57301#msg57301 date=1393441748] But I am in no doubt that the kind of lab I like is unlikely to be seen again in this country. At least, not in any great numbers. Each type has too much invested in the conformation that they have developed. [/quote] I think this is really sad. And really quite awful.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment I don't know. I think that the fashion can change - at least in the show ring. The lady on the video didn't say that the dual purpose Labrador was gone. Just that field bred types would never change enough to be competitive in the conformation ring (show). She did say that she wanted to see show types that were able to work successfully in the field - and I think that that is certainly possible. I took her to mean that the recovery of the dual purpose dog can happen but it will come from the ring, not the field.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Here's hoping. And for my bit, my little SLIM show dog will do his best in his gundog lessons!
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment That's where it starts, so you and Charlie are definitely doing your bit
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=Oberon link=topic=4651.msg57337#msg57337 date=1393446881] so you and Charlie are definitely doing your bit [/quote] Charlie will be pleased to hear it! ;D ;D ;D Joking aside, the little bit of the gundog world we've peeked into has been friendly and welcoming. I'm not sure they think we'll ever be much good, but they have been encouraging. So no complaints from us.
