Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment The impression I get in the UK, is that the reverse is the prevailing belief. That if we are ever to see a dual champion again, it will be by improving the appearance of field lines. I have no idea who is right. I just think it sad that the split has become so wide. Though still not so wide as the split in cockers - where the two strains are virtually unrecognisable as the same breed.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Yes, it certainly is sad. Wherever any convergence ones from it'll be a good thing.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=Penny+Me link=topic=4651.msg57297#msg57297 date=1393440528] I haven't read the article yet... Will be doing so in a sec, I like to read peoples comments first. Karen - with regards to your comment about someone you know having a teeny tiny lab - my Penny is like that, she's 18.8kg fully grown and could actually stand to lose half a kg as she's looking a bit tubby! [/quote] I do remember you saying she is a tiny little thing - bet she's cute as a button!
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment My 2 older girls are like Chalk and Cheese, with respect of looks? Both are very well bred from working lines, with many FTCH's on both sides. Kes is quite a short girl, well formed a fast and excellent retriever, Bella is a tall girl, quite leggy and slim (I have been asked many times 'what breed is she' usually by owners of overweight Labradors).LOL
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=editor link=topic=4651.msg57301#msg57301 date=1393441748] I think that may be true in colder climates, but in the UK, many trial bred labs, including my own red lab, have this kind of conformation. And they cope just fine with cold water and a day's work in the winter Tess is built like a racing machine. She is fine boned and light with a much narrower chest than Rachael, and a slightly snipey long head, eyes located quite far forward (good for marking). Her coat is thinner than Rachael's, and her tail lacks the thickness and fat layer that Rachael's has. These types of trial dog are, as far from the breed standard in many ways, as the hefty modern show dogs are. And I think it is a shame. One of the reasons I opted for some show blood in my young lab was because I like the traditional dual purpose conformation. But I am in no doubt that the kind of lab I like is unlikely to be seen again in this country. At least, not in any great numbers. Each type has too much invested in the conformation that they have developed. Racily built working strain labs still cope well enough in cold water and cold weather to do a day's work, even in Scotland, their bidability, and intelligence makes them much easier to put through a training programme, and their speed and style wins competitions. Most trialling folks think my Tess looks great. Most members of the public can't even figure out what breed she is. [/quote] Pippa, the dog I am talking about is much tinier than your Tessa, who from the photos looks long and rangy, but tough and strong with it. It seems to me there might even be a subdivision in field bred labs between working dogs for the field, and dogs bred purely for competition work.. But that's just my very limited observation!
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=Indy link=topic=4651.msg57367#msg57367 date=1393457134] My 2 older girls are like Chalk and Cheese, with respect of looks? Both are very well bred from working lines, with many FTCH's on both sides. Kes is quite a short girl, well formed a fast and excellent retriever, Bella is a tall girl, quite leggy and slim (I have been asked many times 'what breed is she' usually by owners of overweight Labradors).LOL [/quote] They are both very beautiful! Strong healthy girls. Lovely.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment I'm on a bit of a mission to understand labrador show judges, and what they are looking for in a labrador. I haven't really found what I'm looking for yet. Although have looked up the labradors owned by the 2 judges that will be judging at Crufts this year (we should watch it and discuss - that will be interesting!) - none of their dogs look particularly extreme (I'll post those links in a bit, just checking I've got exactly the right dogs and judges!). I thought this was interesting - in terms of the number of times this show judge says "this is a working dog"... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4ReNOm0KXg (No comment on hair and nails - that wouldn't be fair. I also had to shorten my nails for my first gundog lesson).
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Interesting video, and as you say nothing too extreme with the dog in the demo, a nice well formed and good looking dog. The comment 'this is a working dog' is interesting, would she say the same about Crufts 2013? Gundog group winner (Romeo (IT Ch Loch Mor Romeo). I love to see this dog doing a day working, might manage to loose some weight, sorry I have adversion to over weight dogs.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment I very much like Romeo - I think there is a great deal to like about him. Maybe we should have a "say something nice about the opposite type of labrador from which you own" game - and do our bit for convergence!
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Great vid and I thought her dogs were just right. Beautiful dogs and exactly what I think breeders should strive for. Not a Romeo fan here. His muzzle is too short and the top of his head too domed. Overall his head is unrefined. It's said of a Labrador that it should not remind you of any other breed. Heads like Romeo's are reminiscent of Rottweilers or bully breeds in my view and don't belong on a Labrador.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Very interesting video (not least for the, er, personal grooming). Interesting to hear her talk of her 'international career' as a show judge, and she certainly had a few pins in the U.S. on her world map. Which begs the question, if some of the judges on the circuit are international, why do some winners in different countries appear to be diverging in terms of what is favoured? Or have we not seen enough evidence to make that comment? On the very limited evidence I have seen so far, it would seem that the US winner is the most extreme, then the UK... and the Australian winner closest to what I would consider to be a healthy Lab. Off to compare Breed Standards in different geographical locations now...
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment I think this is a fascinating debate. Like Indy, my two are both of strong working lines but look completely different. Tarka is the tall, leggy long-nosed Delfleet/Ettinsmoor bitch whom strangers think is crossed with a greyhound. Lochan is shorter and has a more dual-purpose conformation and is mainly Drakeshead lines. Completely different in what they are good at on the field as well. I got working lines labs because I wanted dogs which could cope with the amount of exercise I throw at them and would absorb training like little sponges. I also wanted full genetic health checks. But maybe I am completely biased and full show strain bitches fed, exercised and trained the way I have done with the current two would work and play and be fantastic family pets in exactly the same way but maybe look a bit more like "traditional" labradors? Has anyone on the forum done this with full show strain dogs? - I know Pippa has some show stock in Rachael but not full show lines. I know a local breeder who claims her show dogs can also work, but I know quite a few of these dogs personally and they can't hunt or retrieve for toffee and lose interest in work/training very quickly and perhaps this just fuels my bias to working lines dogs? I have a terrible urge to go and get myself a fully show-bred pup and see how it goes over the next couple of years - must resist, must resist I think OH might notice another one.....
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=Lochan link=topic=4651.msg57411#msg57411 date=1393493986] I have a terrible urge to go and get myself a fully show-bred pup and see how it goes over the next couple of years - must resist, must resist I think OH might notice another one..... [/quote] He'd notice. But only when it was too late. Clare
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment I have trained with a full show bred Labrador, in fact the Labs shown in some photos previously are by the same breeder/owner. This dog did not have the enthusiasm of a working Lab but he was adequate, however, I understand that on a shoot he is very good and reliable. I guess game gets him going whereas dummies can be boring!
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Link to the full AKC breed standards: http://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/breed_standard.cfm These parts strike me as particularly interesting: Approximate weight of dogs and bitches in working condition: dogs 65 to 80 pounds; bitches 55 to 70 pounds. Working condition? Straight away that makes me want to ask if show condition is different. The underline is almost straight, with little or no tuck-up in mature animals Legs--When viewed from the front, the legs should be straight with good strong bone. Too much bone is as undesirable as too little bone, and short legged, heavy boned individuals are not typical of the breed. Hmm.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Right, I've got myself a project now. I'm going to get a full show lines pup and actually show her at a weight/level of fitness I consider healthy and see if we can be successful in the show ring. She'll also learn to be a working retriever and see if she can hold her own on the shooting field too. If anyone knows of a successful show breeder with full health checks (including EIC, CNM, MH, PRA, hips and elbows and eye certs) can they PM me please? It can be my 25th wedding anniversary present for this year then OH can't moan too much......
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=ClareJ link=topic=4651.msg57420#msg57420 date=1393495425] Approximate weight of dogs and bitches in working condition: dogs 65 to 80 pounds; bitches 55 to 70 pounds. [/quote] It's worth pointing out this does not appear in the UK standard - the only reference to weight is to specify that the barrel chest must not be achieved by carrying excess weight.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Hooray! Can we feature your progress on the main site please? Readers would love that!
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=Lochan link=topic=4651.msg57421#msg57421 date=1393495835] Right, I've got myself a project now. I'm going to get a full show lines pup and actually show her at a weight/level of fitness I consider healthy and see if we can be successful in the show ring. She'll also learn to be a working retriever and see if she can hold her own on the shooting field too. If anyone knows of a successful show breeder with full health checks (including EIC, CNM, MH, PRA, hips and elbows and eye certs) can they PM me please? It can be my 25th wedding anniversary present for this year then OH can't moan too much...... [/quote] Good for you! Hurray! That's absolutely fantastic thing to do! I think this is amazing. That's great! I would do the same, if I had the skills. All I can do is take my show dog to gundog lessons though...(maybe my skills will improve over time). The only breeders I can recommend is the ones I've seen on the web, looking longingly at their dogs (all health checked). I'll send you the links I have, but I'm sure people like Pippa would know much more. Please get a chocolate! Just to make the point!
