Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment This is such an interesting thread! The diversity of Labradors is fascinating! [quote author=Penny+Me link=topic=4651.msg57450#msg57450 date=1393507839] I'd be very interested to see a few pictures of what we are calling show type labs and working type labs. I have a picture in my head but I'd like to see other peoples ideas too... I'm starting to think that Penny doesn't fit in either category :-[ [/quote] You may be right, but what ever she is I think I have one too! Merla weighed in at 19kg at 9 months this week and I don't think will get much bigger. She's super-fast and a very enthusiastic retriever both on land and from water though, so as far as I'm concerned her shape and size is just right. A little little energetic girl dog is what I really wanted, and we picked a breeder on good health scores, and the fact that mum and dad were both working labs. Dad also does competitive agility and is a fabulous looking dog - see River Meadow Oak if you're interested. Another dog we were watching for litters sired is a fox red - Bellaroyal Chillie Pepper. In terms of 'what a Labrador should look like', in my opinion these two are pretty darned good.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Here are some links to Australian show dogs who are currently doing or have done very well in the show ring and who I think display good type that fits with my interpretation of the breed standard (mainly I've put in yellow ones as it's easier to see them Aralyen Devine Ice https://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=54039 Aralyen I Can Hear Music https://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=49197 Blackboy Grand Guinness (this dog has several Australian field lines in his background) https://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=6435 Cambewarra Penny Royal https://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=18757 Driftway Aussie Rulz https://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=12786 Wintoppi Flying Zephyr (dual show and obedience champion) https://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=11613 Some Australian dogs with dual show and field backgrounds: Cavajal Buccaneer https://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=15177 Kadnook Georgia Brown (Kadnook produce dogs for the field but some are shown) https://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=37137
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=Oberon link=topic=4651.msg57498#msg57498 date=1393527730] Here are some links to Australian show dogs who are currently doing or have done very well in the show ring and who I think display good type that fits with my interpretation of the breed standard [/quote] I like all of the show ones, and in particular Zephyr.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Yes those are exactly what I would picture as show type labs, even the ones you've listed that are dual champions are predominantly show type. I shall have to try and get a good pic of Penny so I can compare her alongside some pics of working type labs. She's definately more working type than anything else.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=Oberon link=topic=4651.msg57331#msg57331 date=1393446671] I don't know. I think that the fashion can change - at least in the show ring. The lady on the video didn't say that the dual purpose Labrador was gone. Just that field bred types would never change enough to be competitive in the conformation ring (show). She did say that she wanted to see show types that were able to work successfully in the field - and I think that that is certainly possible. I took her to mean that the recovery of the dual purpose dog can happen but it will come from the ring, not the field. [/quote] I thought this was interesting and made the same point: (http://www.wylanbriar.com/behavioural-information/can-show-bred-dogs-work/) The chances are, in this modern day and age, the Dual Purpose Labrador is almost certainly going to be all or mostly showbred with maybe just a smattering of working lines in there. This is because the conformational demands of the show ring *tend* to lean towards substance, with a decent amount of bone, head, coat, structural angulation and general solidness required. So whilst many showbred dogs can be trained to work to a decent level, sadly most working bred dogs cannot go into the showring and win prizes. So therefore to fulfill the ‘dual purpose’ credential, it tends to lean towards the moderate sized show bred dog with a dedicated and passionate owner who enjoys training and working their showbred dog to ‘run with the big boys’ in the working competition environment.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment The Labrador world is a funny place. When we were looking for a puppy, we looked at a couple of Wylanbriar litters, but it didn't work out. I loved their setup, and particularly liked the stud dog Fish. And guess what Kath - Bellaroyal Chillie Pepper is Poppy's father!
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=Karen link=topic=4651.msg57542#msg57542 date=1393538819] And guess what Kath - Bellaroyal Chillie Pepper is Poppy's father! [/quote] Ooh! Not surprised at all - I always thought she was a gorgeous girl ;D
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Looking at Project Puppy I feel like I'm trying to get a supermodel to compete in the triathlon. It's a strange feeling looking at show dogs pedigrees - I don't recognise the ShCh names whereas for working lines labs most of the FtCh are familiar. Wylanbriar and other kennels where they work dogs with a more show-type conformation look great and again I recognise the names in the pedigrees and it is in my comfort zone but is almost not the point. I want to try a full show type supermodel, keep her healthy and fit, show and be successful AND have fun teaching her to work at least as well as my current two. And I know absolutely nothing about showing dogs, and have always been a bit supercilious about it (bias again) - my friends who are aware of this project have fallen about laughing at the thought of me primping and preening one of my dogs for the show ring.....I could really do with going to Crufts but haven't got the time at such short notice. Onwards and upwards, more research required.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Such an interesting idea, Lochan! Really looking forward to all your stories. You'd better start your own 'Project Puppy' thread..
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=Lochan link=topic=4651.msg57604#msg57604 date=1393573321] Wylanbriar and other kennels where they work dogs with a more show-type conformation look great and again I recognise the names in the pedigrees and it is in my comfort zone but is almost not the point. I want to try a full show type supermodel, keep her healthy and fit, show and be successful AND have fun teaching her to work at least as well as my current two. [/quote] A kennel like Wylanbriar might help you though, not to supply the dog, but because they are also trying to bridge the gap, they will likely think your project is great, and be supportive - and maybe be able to direct you to the right show breeders. I was thinking, you might have to get a dog from a not so well known show kennel, if the top kennels are snotty about their dogs going to "show homes".
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Found an interesting article on Dual purpose Labradors, http://www.thelabradorretrieverclub.com/Articles/Scales-DualPurposeLabradors.htm There is one typo? The photo refers to Dual Ch Banchory Rolo (1915) The first Dual Champion, it should read Dual Ch Banchory Bolo (1915) The first Dual Champion. This is also interesting about Bolo the dog, http://www.lorkenfarms.com/banchory_bolo.htm I think we have a long way to go before we see another Dual Champion.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment I think that Julie's idea is very good - enlist the help of someone on the inside. Breeders are not just fussy because they only value a show home. Only some puppies are show quality and they represent years of work - a prospective show owner has to prove they're serious and up to the task of campaigning the breeder's 'brand'. Drafting 'insiders' to help broker a deal can only help.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Those Austrailian show dogs are fit, athletic and look in great condition. I'd be proud to own one. Quite a world apart from what I am used to seeing. A sight for sore eyes.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=JulieT link=topic=4651.msg57609#msg57609 date=1393574879] A kennel like Wylanbriar might help you though, not to supply the dog, but because they are also trying to bridge the gap, they will likely think your project is great, and be supportive - and maybe be able to direct you to the right show breeders. [/quote] That's exactly what I thought when I had a read of their website too. Under the section on stud dogs, they offered support looking for alternative dogs if their own were not an appropriate match... Made me think they were very genuine about sharing their expertise and enthusiasm, as well being genuinely concerned to ensure that only healthy dogs resulted from any pairing. Clare
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment I haven't taken any for ages, but my daughter took this the other day
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment I think there is a little confusion between us about what we mean by 'dual purpose' Di wrote this in 2009 and it is interesting to note that she has moved from an essentially show kennels that works their dogs, to an essentially working kennels that compete their dogs. The dogs that she now competes are largely field bred dogs and I think she would agree that this is after a considerable period of trying, to compete with show bred dogs. I think what a lot of people mean by 'dual purpose' is a dog that can win in the show ring, and spend a day on a shoot, work hard, pick up pheasants and behave itself. There are already many Labradors that do this. There are show kennels that work their dogs and that achieve the Kennel Club's working gundog certificate. This is not what I mean, and not what Trialling breeders mean when they talk about dual purpose. They are talking about labradors that win on the bench and in trials. And I think it is over fifty years since we last saw such a dog in the UK. And I may have this wrong, but I am pretty sure that Di, and others like her would say that such a dog, if it were ever to arise again, would have to be from field lines that were improved in conformation, because of the difficulties involved in training show dogs to competition standard. There is already no doubt that show dogs can be trained to work on a shoot. But trialling is a whole other ball game. But perhaps I should get Di to come along and comment, rather than risking misquoting her.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Yes, of course what people mean by "dual purpose" is critical. In that article, Diana did not mean the top field competitions, she said: What level of wins and places means the dog ticks all the boxes to be termed ‘Dual Purpose’? That is harder to say. For us really it would be meaningful (so not 4th of 5 or 2nd of 2) Championship Show awards, and Novice working test awards, but others may have their own higher or lower criteria. For a truely ambitious kennel this benchmark should raise year in year out as more and more is achieved. I would have pasted the whole bit, but was worried about the copyright thing, hence including the links etc. etc. (so worrying, that copyright thing). [quote author=editor link=topic=4651.msg57687#msg57687 date=1393600876] But perhaps I should get Di to come along and comment, rather than risking misquoting her. [/quote] O! That would be lovely! This is all turning out to be super interesting, isn't it?
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment I agree, even amongst serious gundog enthusiasts you would find very few working dogs of trials standards. Riley's a fairly typical working dog I think (the problems my inexperience has caused notwithstanding) and I see a lot more working types in class many of whom will make wonderful working companions. Out of all of those there's probably only 1 that you would even consider trialling (a big powerful bitch with absolutely buckets of drive who naturally marks well). She makes Riley look like a complete plodder
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Maybe we need a new competition... Added: bought my tickets for Crufts (Sunday 9th March - super confusing website, I hope I've got the right ones for the labradors). I had to use all my brownie points up, as OH is coming too. Can't go see a field trial though...
