Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment I think it's still important to remember that we are talking about two things - type and fat. Excess can come from an overly heavy type or too much fat but they are two different things. Here are some links to show dogs that I think have poor type because they are overdone (legs too short, heads too heavy, too chunky all round). You can make your own judgement about whether or not they are also fat: Lacote Whilby Loved https://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=76097 Chablais Pierre https://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=65558 Eagertrieves Downtown Brown https://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=77917 Spiritrock Light Force https://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=58706 I'll live dangerously and put up a link to a dog that I think is at the other extreme - too light and racy (and houndy) in type. It's an American dog (just so the UK gundog people take off only one of my limbs and not all four http://www.backcreekkennel.com/scooter.HTM Here are some dogs I think are in the middle and that actually work and are shown. This kennel, Kadnook, breed working gundogs and have won many field trial awards with their dogs: http://203.89.193.82/kadnook/Pages/Page_Frames/retrieving_champ_page_frame.htm I think these dogs are quite moderate in appearance and have good Labrador type without being overdone or too light. This breeder has titled working dogs in the show ring too (e.g. this dog, Kadnook Strike The Gold (you have to click on his name at the top of the list on this page http://203.89.193.82/kadnook/Pages/Page_Frames/current_page_frame.htm. I think that young dog, Kadnook Strike The Gold, is a beauty. There are a few articles on their site that are interesting, especially this one: http://203.89.193.82/kadnook/Pages/Page_Frames/articles_page_frame.htm which contains following relevant quote: "Having just titled a working dog in the show ring, I found it necessary to put five kilos of fat on him in order for him to win, what a ridiculous situation! This dog will not be shown again as his career as a working retriever requires him to be physically fit and not fat. How can we ever pursue the functional Labrador if the dual-purpose dog cannot compete in both the conformation ring and the working sphere?" [source: "The Functional Labrador in the Show Ring" by Jill McMasters, Kadnook kennels, link to article above].
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Been looking at pictures of UK dogs from working kennels. I like these Riversway dogs: http://www.riverswaygundogs.co.uk/dogs.html They are kept lean, but their legs and bodies have substance behind them and the heads are nice. Very good looking dogs, in my view. I would be happy to have a dog that looked like that. Another UK kennel, Manymills, with working-bred dogs of nice type, according to my taste (and an interesting article at the bottom of the page http://www.ducklings.se/bilder/manymills/manymills_index.htm No reason why these kinds of dogs could not be part of a 'dual champion' breeding program.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Australian kennels that have produced dual (field/retrieving trials and show) champions in living memory: Avokah: http://www.avokahlabs.com/ Blackboy: http://www.blackboykennels.com.au/dualchampions.html And a quadruple champion (show, field, obedience and retrieving) Tenarda Easy Rider: http://webs.dogs.net.au/labradorclubqld/uploads/documents/Aust%20Dual%20Ch%20Tenarda%20Easy%20Rider.pdf
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=Oberon link=topic=4651.msg57807#msg57807 date=1393651215] I think it's still important to remember that we are talking about two things - type and fat. Excess can come from an overly heavy type or too much fat but they are two different things. Here are some links to show dogs that I think have poor type because they are overdone (legs too short, heads too heavy, too chunky all round). You can make your own judgement about whether or not they are also fat: Lacote Whilby Loved https://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=76097 Chablais Pierre https://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=65558 Eagertrieves Downtown Brown https://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=77917 Spiritrock Light Force https://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=58706 I'll live dangerously and put up a link to a dog that I think is at the other extreme - too light and racy (and houndy) in type. It's an American dog (just so the UK gundog people take off only one of my limbs and not all four http://www.backcreekkennel.com/scooter.HTM Here are some dogs I think are in the middle and that actually work and are shown. This kennel, Kadnook, breed working gundogs and have won many field trial awards with their dogs: http://203.89.193.82/kadnook/Pages/Page_Frames/retrieving_champ_page_frame.htm I think these dogs are quite moderate in appearance and have good Labrador type without being overdone or too light. This breeder has titled working dogs in the show ring too (e.g. this dog, Kadnook Strike The Gold (you have to click on his name at the top of the list on this page http://203.89.193.82/kadnook/Pages/Page_Frames/current_page_frame.htm. I think that young dog, Kadnook Strike The Gold, is a beauty. There are a few articles on their site that are interesting, especially this one: http://203.89.193.82/kadnook/Pages/Page_Frames/articles_page_frame.htm which contains following relevant quote: "Having just titled a working dog in the show ring, I found it necessary to put five kilos of fat on him in order for him to win, what a ridiculous situation! This dog will not be shown again as his career as a working retriever requires him to be physically fit and not fat. How can we ever pursue the functional Labrador if the dual-purpose dog cannot compete in both the conformation ring and the working sphere?" [source: "The Functional Labrador in the Show Ring" by Jill McMasters, Kadnook kennels, link to article above]. [/quote] The first 4 links, I agree they are pure Show Dogs, could they work? Yes, but would they have the Stamina to spend the day in the shooting field? The question is, are we talking about just Dual Purpose dogs or Dogs that have the potential to be Dual Champions? IMO there massive divide between the two. A couple of analogy's, Winning a show in the local village hall and working a dog on a walked up shoot. The other is winning BoB at Crufts and winning an Open field trial. They are miles apart. Here are some more UK working lines, http://www.fendawoodstuddogs.co.uk/studdogs.html http://levenghyllabradors.co.uk/levenghyl-dogs-at-stud/levenghyl-wing-and-a-prayer/
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=Oberon link=topic=4651.msg57807#msg57807 date=1393651215] I'll live dangerously and put up a link to a dog that I think is at the other extreme - too light and racy (and houndy) in type. It's an American dog (just so the UK gundog people take off only one of my limbs and not all four http://www.backcreekkennel.com/scooter.HTM [/quote] May the Lambies protect you! ;D ;D ;D [quote author=Oberon link=topic=4651.msg57807#msg57807 date=1393651215] I think that young dog, Kadnook Strike The Gold, is a beauty. [/quote] Very lovely!
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=Indy link=topic=4651.msg57812#msg57812 date=1393658582] The first 4 links, I agree they are pure Show Dogs, could they work? Yes, but would they have the Stamina to spend the day in the shooting field? [/quote] I don't know if they could work. I guess they could do some kind of work But the point I wanted to make was that they are not good examples of the breed Standard, in my opinion, because they represent the chunky extreme of the show spectrum. It's not just about dual purpose or dual champion. I think that we are basically talking about is wanting to see good type and utility being combined in the one dog but there are several threads running through the discussion (which is not a problem!). Personally, I would just like to see the extremes curtailed. I'd like to see dogs in the show ring that don't look like they've been crossed with a Rottweiler and that do look like they would be able to jump over a wall and work a full day, whether that is gundog work, tracking, rescue, dog sports or whatever. I'd like to see working gundogs that don't have thin tails or single coats or houndy heads or snipey muzzles. At the one end there is an emphasis on heaviness. At the other end there is an emphasis on speed. I don't approve of either and I don't think that a Labrador should be either heavy or particularly fast. Leave heavy and fast to other breeds and give me a moderate dog. That is just my opinion and I am definitely not asking for anyone to endorse it I asked earlier if what it takes to win a field trial has changed over the past 50 years. Is that why field dogs have become lighter and lighter? I can see that show dogs have become heavier and heavier due to the pursuit of 'if broad is good then broader is better' and if 'barrel chested is good then the actual size of a barrel must be better' interpretation of the Standards. But why have field bred dogs become the way they (on average) have become? Just saw your post, Julie ;D
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment No expertise here AT ALL. Just reflecting on the fact that I am more drawn towards dogs looking similar to mine own. In particular Indy's Wing and a Prayer link. This is terribly complex and I feel so subjective (breed standards not withstanding )
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=drjs@5 link=topic=4651.msg57838#msg57838 date=1393663403] Just reflecting on the fact that I am more drawn towards dogs looking similar to mine own. [/quote] I think this can be quite a strong effect - my Charlie has numerous conformation "not rights" (he is from a long line of regional show winners, with just a few Show Champs thrown in ;D ;D ;D) but to me (and not to anyone else), he is the most beautiful labrador in the world. One of the things I like about him is that his face looks like the black (working line) dog I had as a kid. Everytime I look at him, I nearly call him Jups - and I think that is lovely. That doesn't (and shouldn't) mean I think labradors generally, should have pointy faces though. Even though when I see them I think "ah, s/he looks like Jups...sigh...".
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Interesting article from last year. http://www.shootinggazette.co.uk/gundogs/539664/Gundogs_Where_are_the_dual_champions.html
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=heidrun link=topic=4651.msg57843#msg57843 date=1393664716] Interesting article from last year. http://www.shootinggazette.co.uk/gundogs/539664/Gundogs_Where_are_the_dual_champions.html [/quote] I liked that article very, very, much. I like anything that suggests there is hope though. I think such a division of type in labradors is staggeringly ridiculous - these dogs should work, but if a "breed" is to mean anything, they have to also look a certain way (otherwise we may as well just train greyhounds to retrieve - that's a throw away remark and not a serious suggestion!). "Enthusiasts from the two spheres often talk past each other with the sort of megaphone diplomacy that generates much heat while casting little light." Too true! I also liked his point about probabilities - if very, very, few show dogs are worked, and almost none whatsoever in experienced hands, the good ones (and I'm sure there will be at least some) will go undiscovered. There was a bit in the articles Rachael linked to that makes a point of a successful show dog (successful in the field) in the 1970s, then going on to never be used at stud because neither side would use him. I can't find the link now, darn it.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Julie, way back answer to you, thought the Lab was too heavy as in fat. I like the Levenghyl (sp!) Labradors, my friend has a couple and I have other friends with them. My Labs are most like them except my young Lab has a dreadful tail, far too long and too thin, I use it to my advantage though and say he is a Colliex with the hope he might not get stolen! Mary Roslin-Williams lived about a mile from me, not sure her Labs would have coped with today's field trialling.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment I too thought it was a shame that the successful dog from the 70s wasn't used by either camp. An opportunity missed.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=Stacia link=topic=4651.msg57847#msg57847 date=1393667502] Julie, way back answer to you, thought the Lab was too heavy as in fat. I like the Levenghyl (sp!) Labradors, my friend has a couple and I have other friends with them. My Labs are most like them except my young Lab has a dreadful tail, far too long and too thin, I use it to my advantage though and say he is a Colliex with the hope he might not get stolen! Mary Roslin-Williams lived about a mile from me, not sure her Labs would have coped with today's field trialling. [/quote] Many thanks - I'm going to be looking very closely at Crufts for this. I don't think they'll let me hop into the ring and feel the ribs, : , but I'll get photos if I can.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment My last Labrador Tess was from show stock , she enjoyed retrieving but was nowhere near as passionate about it as Sam is, he is from a long line of working dogs . I also found her harder to train than Sam , she was more of the " lunatic puppy " variety whereas he was easily managed even as a pup . Tess would go all day with me, but at her pace, whereas he is a lot faster and seems to me to have more stamina . Both dogs had the attributes usually associated with the breed , love of children, loyalty and trusty . She was bolder by far, where Sam is Mr.Caution personified
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment [quote author=Stacia link=topic=4651.msg57847#msg57847 date=1393667502] Mary Roslin-Williams lived about a mile from me, not sure her Labs would have coped with today's field trialling. [/quote] Stacia, how would you say field trialling has changed since those days? What is it that means that that style of Labrador would no longer be competitive today? I have no idea myself as it is not my world but I really am keen to know from those who know
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment So here's some pics of Penny, she's a working type lab from working gundog parents, she has field trial champions in her grandparents and further back. She is a working dog all over, yet she doesn't look anything like the dogs in the links that have been posted here. Opinions?
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Penny looks very very similar to Harley especially size She is gorgeous Sorry, completely away from the question you were asking......I really don't have a clue but I agree she doesn't look like the dogs on the links!!
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Looks like a typical (and very pretty) working type lab to me Very similar to Riley except yellow and female. It's hard to tell from your photos but she does look like Riley and I think from a breed standard perspective Riley's failings would probably be (at least) that his top line isn't flat(I do always wonder if a flat top line is achieved through a bit of padding though ) his tail is quite thick enough and set a bit low, he's also quite narrow through the chest and his coat could be a bit thicker. On the plus side considering he's built of such slim lines he has quite a labby face, definite stop and some breadth to his head (although in line with his general build). His legs and body aren't quite equal in proportion but he's not super leggy with his slimness giving him the racy look as opposed to supermodel legs.
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Got my crufts tickets - it's ok, I have got tickets for Labradors, and not neapolitan mastiffs, phew. It says on the ticket "do not touch the dogs without asking". Good. Maybe I'll get the chance to wander up to a few show Lab breeders and say "I'm having a debate with a few mates, some of them reckon your dog is a Fatpigador, mind if I check and see whether I can feel his ribs?". ;D ;D ;D
Re: Slimdoggy - the next instalment Lauren, do you mean she doesn't look like the pics of the show dogs or the pics of the working dogs? I'm going to assume that you have invited commentary on your dog from a breed Standards perspective. Kudos to you for that. So I'll give it a go Quite obviously a working type, but her head is a lot more 'Labrador' than some working types I've seen pics of (which look a bit houndy). She doesn't look at all houndy. Could have a bit more breadth to the skull. Otherwise head proportions look very good and her muzzle is nice and strong but still nice and neat. A good length. Nice wide but neat nose with good nostrils for scenting. Her eyes are quite large, round and keen looking, whereas to stick with the Standard you'd be looking for more of a soft diamond with a melting/wise expression. In terms of her body type - she is a very light, fine build, but obviously is typical of a working strain. As far as the Standard goes (for any Labrador, not just those intended for showing), she is (please excuse me) too light and fine boned and not muscular enough. Her feet are a bit pointy and could be rounder when viewed from above. Her chest (ribs) could possibly be rounder in cross-section (which is what the term 'barrel chested' means). Angles of back legs look good. Front legs and feet look nice and straight. Tail looks a little low set. Body may be a bit long but hard to tell from the angle...you are looking for 3 to 4 fingers' width between the last rib and the front of the hind leg (i.e. 'short coupled'). Can't really get a good look at her shoulders and it's a bit hard to say more without seeing side-on and front-on standing shots. Hard to really comment on coat from a photo. Overall, a modern, working style Labrador. And a fit and healthy one at that. I'll put up some pics of my dog later and you can go to town. I'll tell you what I think of him too and it won't be that he's a model of perfection. And there's no doubt that Penny would retrieve the pants off him
