(Some) Stupid Nasty Neutered Male Dogs (lots are lovely too :-) )

Riley is intact and can sometimes approach other dogs in a stiff way. I think this is down to his own insecurities however it can cause a problem with all dogs. He's been told off by males, females, neutered and intact. He's only ever really been attacked and had blood drawn by two neutered males walking together but I'm not sure how much was to do with his balls as they came over from quite some distance. The owner did ask me if Riley was intact though which made me think he has this problem often. I'd say there's quite a few intact dogs round our way, neutering is not a given although encouraged in general by vets. I think the fact there was two of them was probably a bigger factor....

 

I am reading this as the topic in general rather than anything you have said here Jo
Wouldn't worry

 

You were

 

We all make decisions for our dogs which we believe to be the right ones , and that's admirable . Whats good for one dog might not be good for another but it is a contentious subject for sure .

 

Thanks Julie T. I'll go look at your links.

I did say in my posts that I do not consider these dogs to be the majority, I wish people would read the whole post. However it is an oft observed tendancy. In our case we are walking off leash in bush areas hundreds and some thousands of acres. A dog who is fearful who does not want to meet Oban has ample opportunity to avoid him. These dogs seek him out.

One such dog is a really interesting case and a cause for part of my concern. A Ridgie, intact up till two years old. He and Oban sniffed and postured and nothing happened, we went our separate ways. We met three or four times. Now he is neutered and he is one of the nasty dogs who will go out of his way to jump Oban. I avoid him and take another path if we see him in time. His owner is really on the ball and gets him under control but lots of owners are oblivious. This dog was ok intact and now he's neutered is not ok. Maybe as he matured he'd have become more assertive anyway, who knows.

Yes, everybody is diplomatic but I do sense some never heard of this phenomenon before. I hadn't and my first dog was an intact male all his nearly 17 years. But back then, most dogs were intact.

Off to read JulieT's links.

 

Maybe Oban will find life much more peaceful as a neutered dog as i think you said the vast majority of dogs around you are neutered. Life will become one big testosterone free love in

 

Interesting reading through all these posts, as a first time dog owner. I assumed, in my nievety that it would be the other way around. My boy is coming up to 6 months and if we do have him neutered the vet has advised to wait until nearer to 2 yrs old as long as he is not getting aggressive etc. It's actually reassuring to me to read about what has been said in previous posts as I would have assumed that any problem we may encounter would have been down to my dog not being neutered. At the moment he mixes with a good range of both.

 

I have 2 males one neutered and on intact i had no problems with either and both mix regularly with both neutered and intact dogs and the only problem I've had is with a neutered male who has issues and is suposed to wear a muzzle out. He attacked Rory. Rory ran to me and hid behind me and the owner used every excuse under sun to justify her dogs attack from your dogs unneutered he always attacks them and he's a rescue etc etc. I told her straight I know who you are, I know were you live are how many times your dog has attacked others. He is your dog and nothing can excuse what you have allowed him to do. If it happens again I will speak to the Dog Warden and if I see him withot his muzzle again i will go the Dog Warden but also speak to the rescue you got him from as they won't be happy about whats happening. Not seen him with out his muzzle once. Don't think she likes me.

 

Snowie is almost four years old and not neutered. I recently replied to another post with the same anecdote, but will write it here, too, as I think it is relevant to this post. There's a Charpei that we encounter almost every day, his name is Rocky and he's neutered. When he sees Snowie he lies down in the grass and then stalks him until he is close enough and then makes a massive show of teeth and growls and looks like he wants to attack Snowie. Thankfully he hasn't sunk his teeth into Snowie, but I am always there quick as a flash and Rocky is scared of me, backs off immediately when I tell him off. Snowie does nothing, just stiffens up, although refuses to leave the scene in a hurry, instead tiptoes off ultra slowly with his head tilted so that he can see Rocky from the corner of his eye. I mentioned this to a friend with a neutered Lab, and she said Rocky also stalks her boy, but her boy thinks it is a game and enjoys it! My point here, is that I don't think Rocky is stalking Snowie cos he's intact; I think it is just Rocky's nature. Although I have seen Rocky playing nicely with a whole lot of other dogs, so who knows... maybe Rocky doesn't like Labs. His owner is very lovely and leashes up Rocky when we're around. Embarrassingly, then Snowie goes to taunt Rocky, playbows and dances around him, so naughty! Rocky's owner now uses treats and makes Rocky sit in front of her when we are around, and I use treats and keep Snowie focused on me when we walk past, and we have now reached a point where our boys ignore each other -- which is a great outcome in my opinion.

There's also a boxer on the same walk that stares at Snowie and makes a beeline for him. I don't trust this boxer, he doesn't make a sound and I have heard via the grapevine that he has attacked two other dogs. Because neutered dogs are the norm in our area, I doubt those victims were intact males. But the owner of the boxer always comments to me: "It's because your boy has balls." Which makes me mad (although I just ignore her and keep walking), because I think it's all about her dog and his behaviour and the way she has trained him. My first encounter with her was when I had Snowie on a leash and her dog approached us menacingly. I asked her to call her dog away from me, which she was unable to do, he would not listen to her. And then she said: "You are making my dog aggressive. It's because your dog is on a leash." Which is why you can understand why I don't engage with her when I see her.

We have been doing the same routes for the past three years, mornings on the mountains, lunch at the park, and evenings at the beachfront, and we meet the same dogs each time. What I've experienced is that, on first meeting, some dogs weren't keen on each other. But over time, they've become friends, or ignore each other. But what were scary dogs in the past are now pleasant, lovely dogs. One in particular, a grumpy small-medium dog called Baxter would growl at Snowie and Snowie immediately come to stand behind me. But now they love each other, race towards each other to say hallo, all waggily, lick each other's mouths! Jill, Baxter's owner, commented once to me that in her experience, the people who are friendly to each other have dogs who are friendly to each other, and the people who don't say hallo have dogs with the same unfriendly personality. It's an interesting observation although difficult to confirm.

Finally, a dog physiotherapist who was in our training class with her four-year-old Golden Retriever recently neutered him because she said he was being attacked and she believed it to be his intact state that was causing it. She had resisted neutering him because of the correlation between joint health and testosterone. She said the most interesting thing she's observed is how playful her boy has become. When intact, he was only interested in marking every tree; now he no longer does that and just wants to play with every dog he meets. When we first met him, Snowie tried to mount him, although I think he tried because the GR had a stick that Snowie wanted and he wouldn't give it up. Well, the GR was furious with Snowie and Snowie stopped immediately and found a stick to chew, as if to say: I didn't mean it! And ever since then, Snowie has not tried to mount him and they get on very well..

Regarding Snowie's wanting to mount other dogs: it doesn't happen often and I don't think has anything to do with the fact that's he's intact, but rather a whole host of factors, each different in the context, and a reason why I wish he could speak and explain to me why he does certain things!! While I am certainly not experienced in dog training, from observation I really do believe that socialisation and training play a very significant role in how dogs interact, possibly more so than whether they are intact or not. Although I think that Snowie's confidence (he is incredibly confident in all situations) might be because he is intact, but on the other hand, his neutered brother is also confident, so there goes my theory!!

 

If we assume, for the moment, that the proposition is true - some neutered dogs do react to intact dogs, what is the best thing for people to do about this risk when they are raising male puppies they intend to neuter?

There do have to be intact dogs in the world - if there aren't any, that's the end of dogkind....plus, some people will make the decision to keep their dogs intact even if they have no intention to breed (as I have done) and regardless of different views on that, it remains the case that in most countries people are free to make that decision.

As young puppies, it must be the case that pups meet intact young puppies, but probably not so very many intact adult dogs? And perhaps very few teenage (sky high testosterone) dogs.

But it doesn't seem all that feasible to suggest that socialisation to dogs with sky high testosterone should be on the neutered teenage dog list of socialisation experiences, in that it might be difficult to find enough dogs...or would it help? Does it help those with dogs around 6 months old, that are due to be neutered themselves, to know this is a risk that extra socialisation might help with?

 

Hmmm, it's so difficult, isn't it? I've seen such a change in Shadow over the months, in relation to how he behaves around other male dogs. Nearly all entire; neutered males are like rocking-horse poo here.

As a puppy, there was never any agro with any other dog. Then, he hit his adolescence and male dogs would beat him up. I'm guessing they were sensing his sky-high testosterone and that made them react, for one reason or another. I am almost certain it wasn't Shadow demonstrating any negative body language; he would always approach in a puppy-like way.

We got through this stage eventually, but the reprieve was short-lived, as Shadow then started to be the aggressor. Could this be because he had learnt that male dogs were going to get nasty with him, so he was getting in there first? Or because he had increased testosterone, which was making him bullish? Or because it was actually starting to settle down, and he was becoming more fearful and nervous around males?

I don't have the answers, but I'm not sure that increased socialisation during these stages would have helped. At first, every unknown male dog would bully him, and then he would bully every unknown male dog. I don't think him meeting any more would have done anything but reinforce his feelings that boys are bad. Now that things have settled down, he seems a lot more confident around other dogs in his home environment and hasn't had "an incident" in a while. He's met some new male dogs and played beautifully or just simply ignored them.

I think one of the biggest issues, and one I tried hard to avoid, is that once you start to think you're going to have a problem, it becomes self-fulfilling. You'll put your dog on a lead and inadvertently change his body language, whilst transmitting your anxiety down that lead. Your dog becomes more nervous and, sensing your stress, is even more likely to act out. I'm not suggesting that these dogs shouldn't be put on a leash, but when they are, the owners need to think about a plan for managing the situation so that it's a positive experience. Start using each encounter as a training opportunity. If you can get your dog to focus more on you and less on the other dog, then he'll be less likely to engage, even if the other dog is the one coming up to him. You should be able to call your dog away to focus on you before they even start their introductions. If you can walk away with your dog focussing on you, rather than straining to get back to the other dog, then the other one is more likely to lose interest.

It's easy to say

 

Very, very true.


Personally, I think that neutering doesn't really change character aspects at all. So if you start off with a friendly, happy dog who is well-trained and socialized and neuter him, it is not likely to alter him much. If you have a dog that has not been socialized properly and who is not properly trained and then neuter him, you are likely to get a 'nasty' dog just as much as you would if you had left him un-neutered. We have three delightful neutered dogs in our neighborhood, a shaggy sheepdog, a GR, and a sort of white fluffy creature, all lovely good-natured dogs. We also have a couple of absolute horrors, who are not neutered.

I do get the argument that neutering confuses dogs, and can make them more anxious and therefore they can act more aggressively, but proper socialization and training should help prevent this.

 

Thanks folks, this is turning into a good discussion. It is a recognized phenomenon that some of you may not have encountered yet. As I said above, I had an intact male for nearly 17 years before and it was news to me.

For myself, I am glad I read about the neutered male on intact male problem before Oban started puberty. I was on guard for all new dog meetings but even more so with other male dogs. We are so lucky to have the large areas we walk in, hundreds and thousands of acres. The dogs and owners have room to ignore and avoid each other. I think that is key. I would be much more worried in some of the tiny dog parks some people go to.

I too wonder, if you intend to neuter your male, what to do to prevent this? Well, hopefully for health reasons you will let your puppy go through puberty. Then he will experience his own surge of testosterone. But then he will most likely be a target himself while in this stage, and it can be from any other dog, male, female, intact or not. If he is then neutered how will he react? We don't know.

To my knowledge there are not studies on this. Serpell and Duffy analysed the C-BARQ data and found some very interesting and surprising results on behaviour differences between intact and entire dogs and bitches but dogs were not followed from birth and tested over and over throughout their lives. One C-BARQ finding though, is that aggression is more common in neutered than in intact males, generally, but they found breed differences.

http://saova.org/articles/Early SN and Behavior.pdf

And by the way, you can do the C-BARQ questionnaire on your own dog if you like. Labs were one of the breeds studied so you can compare your dog to the study group. I did Oban when he was very young, about a year old if I remember correctly. I should do him again.

http://vetapps.vet.upenn.edu/cbarq/

 

I agree with JoJo and Fiona it's upto us as dog owners to train and socialise our dogs with or without balls to the best of our ability. In our village the two most annoying dogs are a Flat Coat and a Labrador both intact, they charge up to every dog they meet (except Hattie) growling and snapping, the owners do not understand about putting them on leads when owners approach with their dogs on lead, frankly they haven't got a clue about their dogs . We have trained very long and very hard to give our rescue dog Charlie (no balls ) the confidence to ignore, be calm and look to us for treats when something like this happens, it can be difficult to walk past confidently with these two boys but I am happy to say we are mostly successful even with them Training, training, training is the only way and I don't care whether dogs have their crown jewells or not xx

 

Agree Helen , and everyone else who says that training is the key . I`m also with Karen in not being entirely convinced that neutering changes a basic personality , if a dog is of dubious temperament before neutering, then it will stay so . I read often about owners who truly believe that castrating " lively " or aggressive dogs will solve the problem , well it wont , only working hard to socialise and train will help and its never too late to start either , my rescue girl is testament to that

 

Me too. In fact Oban's breeder says, "If you like how your dog is now, neuter him now." LOL, and at the usual neutering times for here Oban was a little hellion so I sure didn't want him to stay that way. I've never neutered a male dog. Females yes, and cats. Some young, some old. With the young ones it's like they were freeze framed into the personality and to some extent the emotional growth state they were in at the time.

However I do know two people with stud dogs they had issues with. Not Labs. After neutering one reports the dog almost instantly became a nicer dog to live with. Before he paid attention only to sniffing for girls, after he stopped that and became the cuddly pet they really wanted. The other, a Toller titled in conformation, obedience, agility, rally and outstanding in his field work still took a lot, a lot of work to overcome his two main problems, fear aggression and sniffing and licking the floor after any girl dog, spayed or not. The Toller was never bred. He was an outstanding dog in so many ways but his owner would not breed him because of his serious quirks.

 

I really don't think it's possible to ignore the growing evidence that neutering may increase reactivity - although it's always possible to try to argue away each study, they are growing in numbers....(see the links posted above).

And I think it's really true that neutered male dogs tend to react to intact dogs - the number of trainers, daycares, classes etc that state this is the case and often impose restrictions on intact dogs really can't be ignored either.

So the question is, for those people who think training is the answer - how would you propose the owner of a young, neutered dog did this? It seems pretty darned tricky to me. Indeed, I was asked not to attend a teenage socialisation class with Charlie, as some (not all) other male neutered dogs were too reactive to him (no need to have an argument about who is at fault) - but the point is, if all intact dogs are excluded from the class, there is zero chance of that socialisation class including exposure to intact dogs.....

 

I doubt many owners would want to do it but I'd suggest a competitive obedience class. More and more breeders are titling their dogs in a venue beyond conformation. They like to show their dogs are capable of learning, behaving, being more than just a pretty face. And of course if they are showing in conformation their dog must be entire. Our competitive obedience trainer encouraged those with in season bitches to bring them too. She said we'd find them at a trial whether they were supposed to be there or not so learn how your dog would react and how to deal with it in a controlled situation. Could be the same for neutered males with intact males.. Plus, my experience is you get better training in a competitive class whether you intend to trial your dog or not.

 

Crikey - in season bitches encouraged to come to class! At any organised dog activity I go to (dog club and Flyball comps) they must stay away and this is stated in the rules.

But I agree with the suggestion of more formal obedience classes as a venue for training of an entire dog. More people in these kinds of classes will be breeders. The only problem is that these classes can be discouraging of interaction between dogs so it's more 'training in the presence of other dogs' rather than 'socialisation'. But it's not only competitive obedience classes that have a slightly higher representation of entire dogs - in general, clubs that do any kind of formal dog sport (whether that's obedience or agility or Rally-O or whatever) will have a higher proportion of entire dogs as they tend to pick up that category of dog person that is into it boots and all.

Even where there is a problem dogs can learn to deal with it. There's an entire (stud dog) BC who does Flyball with us and every other male dog (with balls or not!) reacts badly to this dog (who doesn't hesitate to answer back, but he usually doesn't start it). There is just something about this particular dog that others invariably have a problem with. With this BC, all male dogs coming through the ranks just have to learn to ignore him as part of their training. My dog Obi has had to learn to ignore him along with everyone else and they can now run on the same team and have done for a year.

I would just add that although this thread is giving the impression that entire dogs and desexed dogs normally don't get along I'd like to say that this is in fact not the norm. Most entire and desexed dogs normally get along just fine. Some do not, but that's the minority. It's not something I'd generally factor into a decision to desex or not and I don't think it should be a source of worry for anyone deciding to desex or not.

 

I would definitely worry that neutering a dog would make it more reactive, and I would definitely factor it into my decision making. I would particularly worry if that dog was already showing signs of reacting to other dogs, barking and lunging and so on, and it would sway me against neutering, for sure.