Stopping an action?

After reading through Pippa's excellent E Book i'm keen to try out the reward based training on preventing George from doing things, rather than doing things for us..

For example its pretty simple to make him sit, down etc by breaking it down in to sections and rewarding each one.

But how do we train him to do something we dont want him to do, or that he does on his own without us asking?

For example, jumping on the kitchen sides, running on the flower bed or jumping on the sofa?

These are actions he decides to do for whatever reason, he's bored he's feeling naughty etc.

Surely you can train him not to do these things the same way you can train him to sit or down on command?

I just have no idea how to do it, i cannot get my head round where to start.

For example we've been rewarding him from coming down from the sofa when we ask, which is handy as he comes straight down now. But the initial action of going on there in the first place is still there.

I try and catch him about to jump on and reward him for not doing so, but i'm unsure in his mind if this is what he is being rewarded for..

Any tips would be appreciated, i asked on another Lab forum as well.

 

Re: Stopping an action?

I think it's perfectly fine to show him there are things you do NOT want him to do. So if you catch him jumping on to the sofa, and you dont want him to do that, you tell him sharply 'NO!' and make him get down.

Similarly, if he runs on your flower beds, I would be inclined not to let him out in the garden on his own, but only let him out there when you are with him. You could try keeping him on a long lead, and when he starts to get onto the flower beds, pull his lead and again tell him sharply 'NO!'.

Of course, you cant just do this once or twice. But I really think if he knows what you dont want him to do, mostly he wont do it. Unless he is just trying to get your attention - if you are really busy and dont have enough time for him, then it is possible that he does these things just to get your attention - sometime any attention, even bad attention, is better than none.

You dont say how old your dog is - once they are leaving puppyhood they often go through a very testing 'teenager' period.

This is just my opinion, I am not an expert, and I dont know the whole story. But usually labs are very sweet natured and want to please their owners, so once they understand what you want them to do, and as long as they get lots of exercise and affection, then they are happy and indeed willing to oblige. Easier said than done, of course...

 

Re: Stopping an action?

[quote author=Karen link=topic=549.msg2413#msg2413 date=1339419697]
I think it's perfectly fine to show him there are things you do NOT want him to do. So if you catch him jumping on to the sofa, and you dont want him to do that, you tell him sharply 'NO!' and make him get down.

Similarly, if he runs on your flower beds, I would be inclined not to let him out in the garden on his own, but only let him out there when you are with him. You could try keeping him on a long lead, and when he starts to get onto the flower beds, pull his lead and again tell him sharply 'NO!'.

Of course, you cant just do this once or twice. But I really think if he knows what you dont want him to do, mostly he wont do it. Unless he is just trying to get your attention - if you are really busy and dont have enough time for him, then it is possible that he does these things just to get your attention - sometime any attention, even bad attention, is better than none.

You dont say how old your dog is - once they are leaving puppyhood they often go through a very testing 'teenager' period.

This is just my opinion, I am not an expert, and I dont know the whole story. But usually labs are very sweet natured and want to please their owners, so once they understand what you want them to do, and as long as they get lots of exercise and affection, then they are happy and indeed willing to oblige. Easier said than done, of course...
[/quote]

Sorry yes George is just past 5 months old, so still very much a puppy i would say.

The sofa thing has worked he gets down when we ask with a treat on his bed (which is along side) i'm just worried that he might just start doing it, for said treat; which kind of diminishes the point? Also a concern in with regard to the Garden, we remove him every time with a no but have not yet introduced a reward with this, again will he start doing it just for the reward

Its certainly very much attention seeking behaviour, as we've stopped playing with him or he wants his dinner; he wants attention and its what he is going to do! Well sometimes we cannot play with him 24/7 and will have to learn!

Thanks for the reply

 

Re: Stopping an action?

Hi Jez
Welcome to the forum, and thanks for your interesting question. It has made a useful article for tomorrow on the website.

Here is your 'sneak preview'

Training your Labrador not to touch, or climb on certain objects

There are times when we do not want our Labradors to touch (or clamber on) certain things ( the sofa, the bin, etc). Teaching a dog 'not to' do something is usually best approached by training a replacement behaviour. But sometimes there is not always a straightforward path to doing this.

The 'leave that' command

This is how I teach pups and young dogs not to touch things including my furniture. I teach the 'leave that' command. A lot of people use the word 'no' for this which is ok but rather frequently used in conversation or when dealing with other people.
I also have another use for the word NO. I use it as a 'no reward' marker.

The 'No reward' marker

A no reward marker tells the dog he 'lucked out'. It says 'bad luck, you didn't win that time'. As soon as you use it, make sure that the dog is denied access to any rewards. It won't work if another member of the family goes " ahhh, poor little chap" and proceeds to give him a cuddle.
Remember, if you follow the NO with a punishment, it then becomes a punishment marker. We will look at that in a moment.

Teaching your dog not to touch

Have some great treats ready. Let your dog into the area where there is an object that you do not want him to touch.
Let's say your dog is approaching the sofa. You are pretty sure he intends to jump on it. Once he is on there, it is too late. The idea is to get him to pause after he has decided to climb on, but before he actually does it.

Now attract his attention loudly and excitedly (make an exclamation "oooh look what I've got here" ). As soon as he turns to see what the fuss is about, tell him "good" and throw him a treat, well away from the sofa.

Now ignore him and wait for him to head back towards the sofa.

Repeat several times. Then begin to associate the 'Leave it' command with the act of turning away from the sofa. So, as the dog approaches the sofa you say 'leave that', followed immediately by your squeaky excited 'look this way' noises and some treats.
Be very generous at this stage. Amaze your dog with some great treats. Make that 'leave it' command really attractive to him.
Soon you will be able to 'drop' the silly noises and attempts to get his attention. When you say 'leave that' he will turn away from whatever he was about to touch and expect his reward.

What if he ignores me?

So, what should you do if the dog ignores your 'leave that' cue and gets on the sofa anyway. Well that depends on your dog's age and temperament. Your objective is to deny the dog his reward (a relaxing rest on your cosy cushions).

A puppy can simply be lifted down. Give him your 'no reward' marker (I use NO!) Lift him down immediately. Don't let him get comfortable on that sofa.
Reward him when he responds to your 'leave that'.
Say 'NO' and remove him from the sofa if he fails.
If he fails repeatedly, think hard about your rewards. Are they really that rewarding? See also 'punishment' below.

Older dogs

Small dogs can be lifted down too, but (and this is a big but) never attempt to lift a growling or grumpy dog from a sofa. Nor should you lift a large dog because big dogs are usually extremely uncomfortable with being lifted, and if you struggle and hurt the dog, he may resent your interference.

What about punishment?

Why can't you simply 'punish' the dog each time you catch him on the sofa. Won't that work?
I do not want to give the impression that I am entirely against 'appropriate' punishment in every single situation. But it is a difficult thing to judge unless you are experienced. However, one form of punishment that can be useful when teaching 'leave that' is 'time-out'

Time out

If you are finding yourself becoming stressed and frustrated at lack of progress in teaching 'leave that', and are having to repeatedly lift the dog down, then you can consider using 'time-out'. Instead of simply saying 'NO' and removing the dog from the sofa, actually carry him out of the room and out of your company. Leave him on his own for a few moments.

This is a punishment for most dogs. You can add a verbal scolding for a very confident dog. ("Ah-Ahh or Aaaarrggghh bad dog") in a growly voice. But, I strongly recommend that you read 'How to win at dog training' before you choose to go down the punishment route. There are lots of disadvantages.

When you are not there

Obviously the 'leave it' command does not help when you are not there to supervise the dog. Teaching a dog to obey a command or 'rule' in your absence is a really advanced skill and nine times out of ten, it is far better to deny access to the forbidden object, than to attempt to train 'don't touch' in your absence.

This is the case whether or not you train using punishment.

Fortunately, if you always refuse a dog access to lying on the sofa in your presence, in many cases the dog will get into the habit of sleeping on the floor or in his bed, and give up trying to lie on it in your absence. But don't rely on it.

A useful command

Leave that has a great many uses. It can mean 'don't pick up that dead seagull', 'don't go near that snarling dog', 'don't touch that smart man's nice clean suit'. And lots more. Essentially it just means 'Don't touch'.

And whilst the man in the suit may not appreciate being refered to as 'That' he will certainly appreciate not having dog hairs and mud smeared all over his trousers.

As a final thought, remember to use really generous rewards at the beginning of this training process. When people end up resorting to punishment it is nearly always because their rewards were simply not that rewarding.

Have fun teaching the 'Leave that' command and let me know how you get on.

Pippa

 

Re: Stopping an action?

Wow Pippa thank you that's brilliant, we'll start that tonight!

We currently use 'OFF' for George when waiting for food followed by 'yours' to have it, along with things he shouldn't be about to put in his mouth, so he knows what it means.

Should we be thinking a completely different word for sofa jumping, or would 'off' be appropriate for this as well? We obviously don't want to confuse him..

 

Re: Stopping an action?


It doesn't matter what cue word you use, as long as you are clear in your own mind as to exactly what it means ;D I like 'leave that' because the meaning (don't touch) applies to lots of different situations. And whilst the dog needs to be taught about each situation in turn to begin with. He eventually learns to generalise that 'leave that' means 'don't touch' in lots of different situations.

 

Re: Stopping an action?

Sorry Pippa, did not mean to jump in the way of you explaining your trainging techniques, I was just saying what I've found to work in the past. And I must say I've used the 'leave it' command in the past with my old dogs, and it can indeed come in very useful and works very well - from getting them to drop a rotting fish on the beach, to not jumping in a filthy ditch!

I understand Jez's point though, would a smart dog, who gets rewarded for getting off the sofa, work out that he gets a reward for stopping an action - and so do the very thing he is not supposed to do, in order to get the reward for stopping??? That's why your command of 'leave it' or 'leave that', delivered before the unwanted action can occurr, is important, I guess!

 

Re: Stopping an action?

Please feel free to jump in whenever you want! Everyone's opinion is valid and it is always interesting to see how others deal with a problem.

And yes, the timing of the 'leave that' command is important. Otherwise, as you say, the dog might be encouraged to repeat the sofa climb, in order to be rewarded for getting off again.

 

Re: Stopping an action?

it is an interesting one - my gun dog trainer maintained that you never teach a dog what not to do but always what you want it to do as they understand this much more easily. For example getting Rusty to not get on the sofa I would say "bed" meaning the rug that's his on the floor. He already knew "bed" so this was easy. Having said that personally I think "leave it" is a necessary command to have!

Interestingly the Canine Partners service dogs teach the command "don't touch" purposely because it's more natural for "non dog" folk to say than "leave it"

 

Re: Stopping an action?

I thought i would give an update on how George is getting on with this and hopefully some advice if its wrong...

Before, George would jump on the sofa willy nilly when he liked, usually when we were not keeping him occupied.

So we started when we thought he was about to jump on (his back legs bending down) there was a quick ahhh and a treat thrown away from the sofa, so he had to move to get it.

This progressed to when we think he was about to do it, or he gets a paw or two onto the sofa, ahhhhh or ooooo a NO and the treat thrown away from the sofa.

So now we are at the point of he is rarely on the sofa, at most front 2 paws. But he is instantly expected a treat, i'm concerned he is just putting his paw up there to get a treat though..

He is very persistant if we dont distract him with something else and we're sitting on the sofa with space for him he will try sometimes 10/20 times.

Whats the next stage, we fade the reward and just use NO?

Currently i cannot see him just sitting next to the sofa, he seems to enjoy just looking at it ready to put 2 paws on and then get a treat :-[

 

Re: Stopping an action?

It sounds as though you have made some progress. And you may well have 'trained' him to put his paw on the sofa for a treat. But that's ok, because you can now train him that the treat comes only when he has his paws on the ground. So lots of times when he is near the sofa with both paws on the ground, you can tell him 'good' and throw him a treat. If he puts his paws up, just behave as you did when he used to climb all the way up. Say 'NO' and firmly move him away from the sofa. If he persists more than a few times, then you can use 'time-out'.

Bear in mind though, that if you can think of an alternative to this 'battle of wills' it is a good thing for both you and the puppy. So give yourself some time when he is in his crate for a while so that you can relax. Or give him a nice stuffed Kong to chew whilst you are sitting on the sofa.

It takes time to build good habits and he is very young. Over the next few days and weeks, if you are consistent, he will forget all about trying to get on the sofa, and will be trying your patience with another piece of mischief!

Pippa

 

Re: Stopping an action?

[quote author=editor link=topic=549.msg2453#msg2453 date=1339586795]

It sounds as though you have made some progress. And you may well have 'trained' him to put his paw on the sofa for a treat. But that's ok, because you can now train him that the treat comes only when he has his paws on the ground. So lots of times when he is near the sofa with both paws on the ground, you can tell him 'good' and throw him a treat. If he puts his paws up, just behave as you did when he used to climb all the way up. Say 'NO' and firmly move him away from the sofa. If he persists more than a few times, then you can use 'time-out'.

Bear in mind though, that if you can think of an alternative to this 'battle of wills' it is a good thing for both you and the puppy. So give yourself some time when he is in his crate for a while so that you can relax. Or give him a nice stuffed Kong to chew whilst you are sitting on the sofa.

It takes time to build good habits and he is very young. Over the next few days and weeks, if you are consistent, he will forget all about trying to get on the sofa, and will be trying your patience with another piece of mischief!

Pippa
[/quote]

Thank you again Pippa, thats brilliant.

We'll give it a go, its odd how they forget things, at the moment i can never seem him giving up on the sofa; but then again i could never see him stopping nibbling fingers 'back in the day' ;D

 

Re: Stopping an action?

They stop nibbling fingers?????? Hooray, cant wait!!! ;D

 

Re: Stopping an action?

[quote author=editor link=topic=549.msg2453#msg2453 date=1339586795]

It sounds as though you have made some progress. And you may well have 'trained' him to put his paw on the sofa for a treat. But that's ok, because you can now train him that the treat comes only when he has his paws on the ground. So lots of times when he is near the sofa with both paws on the ground, you can tell him 'good' and throw him a treat. If he puts his paws up, just behave as you did when he used to climb all the way up. Say 'NO' and firmly move him away from the sofa. If he persists more than a few times, then you can use 'time-out'.

Bear in mind though, that if you can think of an alternative to this 'battle of wills' it is a good thing for both you and the puppy. So give yourself some time when he is in his crate for a while so that you can relax. Or give him a nice stuffed Kong to chew whilst you are sitting on the sofa.

It takes time to build good habits and he is very young. Over the next few days and weeks, if you are consistent, he will forget all about trying to get on the sofa, and will be trying your patience with another piece of mischief!

Pippa
[/quote]

This is slow progress he seems to see it as a game now I think when he's bored. Usually at one end of the sofa, walk round look at us if he's going to jump up, OFF run and get treat.

If we just say off every now and again he'll put his paw up and if we ignore him he just climbs on.

He seems to just be able to try and try and try and try.

As we're now using the clicker for jumping up, could we somehow introduce it to this so he'll hopefully get it.

Or its just more persistence and he'll eventually get bored...

 

Re: Stopping an action?

It is just persistence really. He is a determined little chap, but not as determined as you.

The clicker is simply a marker to let the dog know what he is being rewarded for. And you can apply it to any type of training. Just click the behaviour you want. In this case both front paws on the floor when he approaches the sofa, and follow with a treat.

Don't forget to give yourself a break from all this. It is tiring concentrating on a pup! A babygate across the sitting room door can resolve a lot of conflict in homes with a young puppy. Just a thought.

Pippa

 

Re: Stopping an action?

[quote author=editor link=topic=549.msg2524#msg2524 date=1340352300]
It is just persistence really. He is a determined little chap, but not as determined as you.

The clicker is simply a marker to let the dog know what he is being rewarded for. And you can apply it to any type of training. Just click the behaviour you want. In this case both front paws on the floor when he approaches the sofa, and follow with a treat.

Don't forget to give yourself a break from all this. It is tiring concentrating on a pup! A babygate across the sitting room door can resolve a lot of conflict in homes with a young puppy. Just a thought.

Pippa
[/quote]

Thanks Pippa, yeah we know how tough he can be, at times we just think he is doing it fro the treat. Then however, there is a little glimmer of hope when he just walks round and sits next to the sofa.

We will persist, it doesn't help being around 6 months that i assume his adolescence is slowly starting as well.

 

Re: Stopping an action?

Thought i would update that George is finally getting not jumping on the sofa, the odd time he does he comes down when told and very rarely is removed (when he is feeling especially naughty)

Pippa's suggestions along with practising settling when we're both sitting on the sofa has helped a lot, with him coming sitting along side and lying down; when he has forgotten why he is there a treat is placed at his paws.


Now George has a new favourite past time.
Usually its a tea towel or cloth, to be fair he has never stolen food from there which is good.
We tell him off each time if we catch him etc.

"Yeah i've got the tea towel isn't this fun you cannot get it.."

Yes thank you George.

I sometimes try and generate a fake scenario of making him aware of a towel or cloth on the side/worktop and if he walks past and leaves alone by himself he gets a click and reward..

Problem is he either knows i have treats/clicker on me so just sits waiting for a reward for doing not a lot. Or he just jumps and gets the cloth and runs off, little git.

Is this enough and over time he'll get over it if we continue to correct, he's 7 months now?

Or something we'll have to train out of him, if so any techniques that people have had success with?

I appreciate he is still young so everything a game to him but just after some advice of do we need to train things out of him or just correcting each time thus teaching good manners which will pay off in the end?

Any training suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

Re: Stopping an action?

Hi Jez, there was a time when I used to go to great lengths to try and think of ways to stop dogs 'counter surfing'. But I am afraid I just don't leave stuff where dogs can reach it now.

Anything you try, will only work when you are there. I think it is fine to tell him 'NO' if he looks at your tea towel with 'intent'
Though bear in mind that if you do that, he may soon work out that he can nick the tea towel when your back is turned....

Once he has hold of the tea towel he is effectively 'retrieving' and I deal with this by simply rewarding the dog for handing me anything in the house it has picked up. That at least saves you from retrieving your tea towel from underneath his blanket! It also gets you a dog that brings you every shoe that anyone takes off and every letter that comes through the letter box, but that is another story!

Pippa

 

Re: Stopping an action?

[quote author=editor link=topic=549.msg3051#msg3051 date=1343752879]
Hi Jez, there was a time when I used to go to great lengths to try and think of ways to stop dogs 'counter surfing'. But I am afraid I just don't leave stuff where dogs can reach it now.

Anything you try, will only work when you are there. I think it is fine to tell him 'NO' if he looks at your tea towel with 'intent'
Though bear in mind that if you do that, he may soon work out that he can nick the tea towel when your back is turned....

Once he has hold of the tea towel he is effectively 'retrieving' and I deal with this by simply rewarding the dog for handing me anything in the house it has picked up. That at least saves you from retrieving your tea towel from underneath his blanket! It also gets you a dog that brings you every shoe that anyone takes off and every letter that comes through the letter box, but that is another story!

Pippa
[/quote]

Yes thats what we have been doing, if he looks at jumping on the sides and have a look he is promptly told off and distracted.

If he does indeed get anything we have to get a treat for him to drop it, he doesn't really bring it to us, rather just drops it where he was chewing it and comes to get his treat.

We need to work on more interesting treats, as only a select few things seem to get him to drop it.