Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. Sounds promising Kate. Poor Benson he does get frustrated doesn't he. I thought Scott was quite bad but all he tries to hump is his brother !!! I've explained that's wrong for so many reasons but he keeps trying. It usually only happens if their excited about something like a visitor. :
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. Day 4 Training session at Widgets at the Furry Yuff club, today was working on self control, with 2 other dogs who were rather excitable! We feel right now that ensuring we are focussing on training, and having a trainer observe Benson is a real help Benson managed the exercises today, just about although it was obvious he wasn't as calm as usual, so we used the long line to set Benson up to succeed. This really helped with recall exercises. His loose lead walking was very good. He did do really well on the "sit with distractions". This exercise was a sort of gate..with with dogs at each end in a sit position. Benson was one of the dogs. Another dog has to walk between us. The task was to keep our dogs in the sit position. Then we reduced the distance by a metre each time, making the sit/stay more challenging for our gate end dogs . The advice we had was keep things very simple right now with Benson, if he is a bit frustrated, with hormones coursing through, don't try and teach anything too complicated, and in fact it might be the case we have to go backwards on training and revisit some of the basic stuff. All dogs are individual, maturing at different rates, and are affected very differently by hormones, it could be the best thing we can do is castrate Benson, but we will persevere as long as possible, I still believe right now he is just a little bit too young at 16 months old. We finished off the day with a good walk on the common, with a mixture of on lead and off lead walking, not doing too much as last walk of the day, but none of the frenzied pulling and running off we had previously experienced in the same area.
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. Very interesting, he seems to be doing very well. Why is using a long line for recalls "setting a dog up for success?". My trainer would say it simply removes their choice to exhibit an undesired behaviour (so they don't learn, although that may be better than nothing or allowing the behaviour of course).
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9925.msg145047#msg145047 date=1424552778] Very interesting, he seems to be doing very well. Why is using a long line for recalls "setting a dog up for success?". My trainer would say it simply removes their choice to exhibit an undesired behaviour (so they don't learn, although that may be better than nothing or allowing the behaviour of course). [/quote] There were other dogs on our session, these were very excited, being young adolescent dogs. We used the long line to occasionally to "tease" a response from Benson, however mostly we were waiting for natural "check ins" and reinforcing those behaviours. One of the other dogs was a small rescue from Cyprus, so we were also being careful not to "overface" this young dog, who hadn't had the socialising opportunities most dogs have This little rescue did so well, and I am proud of the response Benson had to this wee fella.
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9925.msg145047#msg145047 date=1424552778] Very interesting, he seems to be doing very well. Why is using a long line for recalls "setting a dog up for success?". My trainer would say it simply removes their choice to exhibit an undesired behaviour (so they don't learn, although that may be better than nothing or allowing the behaviour of course). [/quote] You definitely do want the dog to have several options (some degree of free choice) so you can reinforce their selection of the option you wanted (if that's what they offer). Otherwise it's not operant conditioning and you're limiting the opportunity to learn. But it's always best to stack the odds in the dog's favour when doing something new, or newly challenging. That might mean doing a recall in a fenced area or on a long line. Safety is important and so is avoiding self rewarding by running about and having a doggie party. I wouldn't give a dog 100% choice over 100% of the possible options in a challenging or new situation. Start with some choice and a smallish margin for error, and gradually increase both.
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. I could be remembering this wrong and I apologise if I am. Isn't there a view that says if you prevent a dog practising an unwanted behaviour you will gradually (eventually : ) see a decline in that behaviour. ? In that case doesn't the long line preventing the unwanted behaviour of the dog doing a bunk when you recall help with recall training ? Doesn't the long line also help prevent the dog self rewarding by ignoring the recall ?
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. Yes, a long line will prevent the self rewarding, and it's often better than allowing the self rewarding (depending on various circumstances). But if it's used as management, and the dog isn't making a choice, the dog won't learn the right behaviour (of course, stamping on the line and bringing the dog up short is an aversive, so that might very well work*). Unless it wears the line for so long it doesn't know the difference between wearing the line and not wearing the line. Not very many people do that though, although there are some dogs at training that have been wearing a line for this reason for 1.5 to 3 years... * Added: I know Kate was doing nothing of the sort btw!
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. [quote author=Oberon link=topic=9925.msg145067#msg145067 date=1424565403] I wouldn't give a dog 100% choice over 100% of the possible options in a challenging or new situation. Start with some choice and a smallish margin for error, and gradually increase both. [/quote] Neither would I give a dog 100% choice (at first). "Setting the dog up for success" I take to mean arranging the environment and circumstances such that the dog makes the right choice and get the reward. So I wondered how a long line was part of that.
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9925.msg145155#msg145155 date=1424625067] "Setting the dog up for success" I take to mean arranging the environment and circumstances such that the dog makes the right choice and get the reward. So I wondered how a long line was part of that. [/quote] You still arrange environment and circumstances just the same with a dog on a long line so that you still set him up for success
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. [quote author=charlie link=topic=9925.msg145161#msg145161 date=1424626460] [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9925.msg145155#msg145155 date=1424625067] "Setting the dog up for success" I take to mean arranging the environment and circumstances such that the dog makes the right choice and get the reward. So I wondered how a long line was part of that. [/quote] You still arrange environment and circumstances just the same with a dog on a long line so that you still set him up for success [/quote] That's very true, Helen. I'm getting confused with this long line business, Julie. On another thread you mention dogs that have been wearing the line for years. If your trainer is against the use of long lines why are they allowed in training? Am I misunderstanding something?
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. Well we are now at Day 5...and today we had a visit to Blaise Castle, a very popular area for families and dog walkers alike. Incredibly busy, teeming with dogs running around like mad...at one point there were at least 50 toy dogs all on lead having some sort of get together.. Everything was going OK, admittedly a new and very exciting environment for Benson, plus we were meeting up with Pongo, Harley, Murphy and little Maisie. Then disaster struck, and off he went....we found him eventually about 15 - 20 mins later, getting much to interested in a spaniel bitch..so I guess the Tardak isn't quite at optimal effect yet.. : :
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. Ah Kate maybe a few more days and it will have kicked in but glad you managed a good walk with your friends Does Tardak always work? x
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. Was the bitch in season? In which case, it would have been a good test to see how the Tardak was working, but rather irresponsible of the owner! Or does he get over-amorous even when they're not in season?
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. Ah, sorry about the pretty spaniel. But good news about the rest of the walk. But, was the spaniel in season? If not, was Benson's reaction sexual behaviour likely to be changed by the tardek anyway, do you think? [quote author=heidrun link=topic=9925.msg145166#msg145166 date=1424627012] If your trainer is against the use of long lines why are they allowed in training? Am I misunderstanding something? [/quote] My trainer isn't against the use of long lines. Particularly where access to a very high reward would be very detrimental.
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. The two gun dog trainers I went to used long lines for training all kinds of behaviours with clients dogs, they used it with Charlie for his absconding behaviour or we couldn't have trained recall and he was on a long line for almost 3 years Isn't a long line just a training tool like a harness, head collar etc.?
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. [quote author=charlie link=topic=9925.msg145175#msg145175 date=1424628081] Isn't a long line just a training tool like a harness, head collar etc.? [/quote] Yes. The original question was about "setting up for success" and choice. Not questioning the usefulness of long lines as a management tool.
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. [quote author=snowbunny link=topic=9925.msg145172#msg145172 date=1424627803] Was the bitch in season? In which case, it would have been a good test to see how the Tardak was working, but rather irresponsible of the owner! Or does he get over-amorous even when they're not in season? [/quote] We think she was...according to the err...description of behaviour... : Benson doesn't habitually run off...I can count the times the times this has happened on one hand since September when he probably became aware he was a boy! It is only a bitch in season he gets amorous with though, he has lots of girl friends and is just happy playing ball with them ;D
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. OK day 6...and we really should be seeing an effect. Hard to say really, certainly not yesterday! : Overall I would say he is a smidgen quieter, and certainly no side effects apparent or evidence re: unwanted behavioural changes. Importantly his interactions with other dogs are normal and relaxed, and other dogs aren't reacting differently to Benson which is positive. Not long back from a post work walk..so walking for about an hour, across the common, in horrendous weather! Rain, sleet, and bloomn' windy! Not to mention the MUD!!! Most of the walk for Benson was on lead, not because I don't trust him, but more for training a good relaxed on lead walk. Treating Benson when he chose to walk close on my left side, he did brilliantly. A few times I let him off to romp with friends dogs, but each time only with a release cue. Recall in those situations was also much sharper. The interesting thing I noted, was how close Casper kept to me, with Benson on lead, he really didn't wander more than about 10 metres, and checking in frequently. The benefit of this was I was close enough to to get his attention when another dog appeared, this enabled Casper to pause, and that was enough time for him to think about whether he needed to run off like a bullet and meet the other dog...when he does think...and chose to stay close he was massively rewarded with a whole cocktail sausage! ;D So despite having to wash the floor when we all got home (both dogs insisted on a swim...then mudbath...) all in all a good walk!
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. So glad today was better for you On our walk we had sun, rain, sleet and snow!! And lots of mud Harley is a bit muddy, by ternayacummings, on Flickr
