Hello, Just back from another pretty rubbish training class See first class drama here http://www.thelabradorforum.com/index.php?topic=6297.msg83084#msg83084 Any tips on teaching the down command? The trainer instructed us to have a treat in one hand to lure (but never actually gets given) into the down and another treat in the other hand which is then given when the dog lies down, oh and give the down command before they lie down. So i had an excited puppy with two treats in my hands that she could smell, i'd given a command she ignored and a wriggly puppy I couldn't contro due to the treats - did i mention I had a treat in each hand?!! Seeing the rubbishness going on she then instructed me to get Ruby (my pup) to go under my leg to encourage the down - so now I am a contortionist with both hands full and a very confused puppy!!! ARGH!!! There must be a better way?? This seems very complicated, and I don't like giving a command that is then ignored?! I have been saving the down command for training class to be shown how to do it and frankly wish I hadn't! Feeling very frustrated.
Re: Teaching the down Poor you!!!! That method is not what I'd use. Try this: Step 1. Luring - put one treat in your right hand. Other hand empty. - put treat hand to her nose and move it down to the floor - hold it there till she starts to lower herself down (this might take a while. Just wait) - soon as she's on the floor, mark/click and open your hand to give her the treat - repeat this 4-5 times Step 2. Turn it into a visual cue plus reward - put treat in left hand or pocket. Pretend to have treat in right hand (close fingers so she can't tell) - lower right hand to ground using same movement you did initially - soon as she's down, mark/click and reward with treat from left hand or pocket - repeat this 4-5 times Step 3. - repeat Step 2 on a few different occasions, just doing 4-5 downs each time. When you're getting a reliable response, move to Step 4. Step 4. Put a word on it. - put treat in left hand or pocket. - lower right hand to ground using what is now your visual down cue - soon as she's definitely absolutely in the process of lying down say 'Down' - mark/click and reward with treat from left hand or pocket - repeat this 4-5 times, gradually saying the Down cue a little earlier each time In later sessions you can verrry gradually reduce the degree of movement of your visual/hand cue. Let us know if that works If she won't lie down at all then we can talk about 'capturing' the behaviour when she lies down naturally. Or you can try making a height barrier with your leg but I haven't seen a lot of success with that to be honest.
Re: Teaching the down Hi Rachael! Quick update - we have been doing the down training with your method, and after a bit of a slow start, are doing brilliantly now! So rewarding for Ruby and us Thank you! She really seems to enjoy training with these positive techniques, as do we! My hand is a bit mauled from her best efforts to dig or chew the treat out! But patience and perseverence are paying off and she's clicked now with the visual cue, so we'll be moving on to step four now. Thanks again. PS - I've decided not to go back to the training classes. Just not in line with my way of thinking (well this site and Pippa!!) Thank goodness for this forum!! 8)
Re: Teaching the down That's great, well done!! The down is a hard one to teach. It actually sounds like she's picked it up really quickly. And I know what you mean about the mauled hand....
Re: Teaching the down Spot on Rachel - made me smile at this part [quote author=Oberon link=topic=6392.msg84738#msg84738 date=1401791224] - hold it there till she starts to lower herself down (this might take a while. Just wait) [/quote] We've been at it for days - can't get past step 1 - everytime it 'takes a while' Once he's finally twigged its treat time when he's down, he stays down. Walk to other side of kitchen - back to Step 1 I've always found this one to be the hardest in them of the 'getting it'; I'm going to get there though, good for building my 'calm and be patient' skills. Maybe it's me. So, Ems76 - well done you and I think your decison not to go back to those training classes was a good one.
Re: Teaching the down That is definitely not uncommon Try using the 'capturing' technique of marking and rewarding any time your pup lies down voluntarily (C&T when they hit the ground). That will help to get the message across that lying down around you is a worthwhile thing to do
Re: Teaching the down I used The same method as Rachael has suggested and it worked for us.... You've made the right decision about the class....Seek as many socialization opportunities now as you can whilst training the basics you want on your own,you'll find so many resources on the main site.Then maybe think of going back to another class when she is older and you want to proof in a distracting environment ...that was what I did when Dexter was about 8 months,keep,up the good work ,she sounds like a great dog x
Re: Teaching the down [quote author=Dexter link=topic=6392.msg85027#msg85027 date=1401871206] I used The same method as Rachael has suggested and it worked for us.... You've made the right decision about the class....Seek as many socialization opportunities now as you can whilst training the basics you want on your own,you'll find so many resources on the main site.Then maybe think of going back to another class when she is older and you want to proof in a distracting environment ...that was what I did when Dexter was about 8 months,keep,up the good work ,she sounds like a great dog x [/quote] Yes, good plan about maybe doing some other class in the future. I have found lady fairly locally who does gun dog training, so may see about that My mum lives nearby and has an 8 month old dog who we are now starting to introduce Ruby to, so I am hping some walks with her will be good socialisation too. The trouble with being on the farm is that we don't really see other people or dogs on our walks, so it's going to be important to try and take her to more public places for walks too.
Re: Teaching the down This is how I did it with two dogs with fast results. 1. Put the dog in a sit. 2. Put the treat in between the dogs legs (under it's chest on the floor) and repeat the word down. 3. Click & treat when dog is down. Repeat repeat repeat. Tip, as the dog starts to lie down slowly pull the treat forward, if the dog starts to sit up again then slowly push the treat back under the the chest. I was always on my knees and my head was lower than the dogs head. Have fun ;D
Re: Teaching the down I would tend not to cue a sit position first, so the dog doesn't think the down is part of a chain always starting from sit - you eventually want to be able to cue it from a stand, on the move etc. Also, it's best to only lure 4-5 times before turning the hand movement into a cue with the reward coming from the other hand. Best to phase out luring ASAP in this way as, with luring, the dog is not really thinking about what it's doing and continued reliance on luring means the dog won't perform if it can't see a treat in your hand. I also would delay the introduction of a verbal cue until you're reliably getting the behaviour in response to the hand cue. Otherwise you risk blunting your word by saying it without getting a response. Wait till you're sure of a response and keep your cue word sharp
Re: Teaching the down [quote author=Oberon link=topic=6392.msg85384#msg85384 date=1401954520] I would tend not to cue a sit position first, so the dog doesn't think the down is part of a chain always starting from sit[/quote] The dog will not think it's part of a chain, Sit is a different command. I found it easier to have the dog in a sit rather than on all fours as the dog is under control when in a sit. When standing it has too many options. Worked for me in 5 mins then I moved on to a down when standing. I had fast results, was only trying to help those still struggling. I'd agree with you about saying nothing until the dog actually does lie down then using the cue word. I didn't know any better at the time I taught it.
Re: Teaching the down Sounds good, there is more than one road to Rome Just saying how I do it and how we teach it in our kindi classes at our dog club. A lot of handlers I see there do run into troubles if they keep luring too long or if they introduce a cue too early, but these are not experienced handlers like yourself.
Re: Teaching the down I must say...we did it with the sit on the floor and move the treat under your arched legs approach. worked for us! All to his own. Many paths.....as you say
