At clicker expo, I bought The Art and Science of Canine Behaviour by Patricia McConnell. I got this in DVD form, and it’s a recording of a seminar that she presented in 2011. I’ve watched part 1, and I’m moving onto to part 2 now. I'm really enjoying it, but I'm a bit disappointed that the format is just a lecture. I had hoped for different material (the jacket says "slides, videos and lectures"). It's reasonably hard going, but she is an excellent presenter, and I am enjoying it. Whether I'll make it to part 4, we'll have to see..... Her scale of reference is the difference between breeds – Golden Retrievers and Labradors at one end of the scale, and Basenji and Huskies at the other. (So while I might be tempted to apply what she is saying to different Labradors, for example, she is talking about a much wider spectrum of dog behaviour than I am likely to have seen very much). As an aside, I am now very interested in why so few competitive trainers (gundog work aside) seem to choose Labradors as a dog. I picked up very strongly at ClickerExpo that there is really no love for the Labrador as a companion or working dog amongst professional trainers outside the world of retrieving. Key points from part 1: A tiny genetic change from the wolf to the dog, makes a massive difference. A domestic dog is not a wolf. If you don’t believe that, go and train a wolf. When you select for friendliness in foxes (domestic dogs no doubt derived from bolder/more friendly wolves) the impact is dramatic and quick, the coat colour changes to show white patches (also occurs in horses) but fades over 5 – 8 generations. Changes in physiology – more frequent seasons in females. Delay in onset of fear periods. Wolves are family animals, and have roles in families – this is rare in mammals. Dogs have an even greater sense of family than wolves. It is extremely difficult to separate out genetics from environmental factors. We know very little about the genetics of inherited behaviours. Temperament: results from genetics. Personality: results from genetics and environment. Shyness: fear of the unfamiliar. It does not mean retiring, it does not mean hiding behind the curtain. Neophobic. Scared of new things. A lunging, barking dog can be a shy dog. Different dogs respond because of shyness in different ways. The general public does not see subtle signs of fear or shyness – dog owners are appalling bad at spotting the signs of shyness/fear. People deny their dogs are shy, and call them cautious. Whether a dog is shy or bold is very strongly related to genetics. Fearfulness and shyness is inherited - it has a very, very strong inherited component. If you socialise a naturally shy dog, you’ll get a slightly shy dog. If you don’t socialise it, you get a very, very, shy dog. Vice versa in a bold dog. The best predictor of success in training (working) dogs is how bold they are. Males are bolder, and tend to get higher scores in competitions (but there are lots of other factors at play and a casual link has not been identified). Reactivity (different trait to shyness this is also highly heritable. Frustration tolerance: this is heritable but hugely influenced by environment. People need to know how to deal with frustrated puppies. (unfortunately she didn’t say, but that might be in part II).
Interesting! I was surprised by the lack of love for the Labrador at ClickerExpo too. I would say Obi is pretty bold and Riley is definitely not
I think Charlie is a bold dog, and he has learned to be less bold over time (because being super bold actually gets you into a LOT of hot water....as wolves, these dogs would not have survived to reproduce). I didn't include it in the notes, but she described evaluating a litter of puppies at 7 weeks for Shy/Bold, Reactiveness, and Frustration Tolerance. She identified 3 puppies that were likely to have future problems and turned out to be right. I wish I had understood how appropriate socialisation interacts with a puppy's temperament when I got Charlie! Oh well.....
Interesting. Can I ask what you would have done differently? You did wonderful things socialising the wee choccie drop, I thought.....
Just my thoughts after what I've read about different breeds and socialisation (and listening to Part II of PMcC). Charlie came from a small breeder doing modestly well in the show ring, and breeding her third litter in her kitchen. She was super diligent and worked her socks off with those puppies, doing her very best. I'd be surprised if she made a single penny out of the whole thing. Charlie was bred to have a solid temperament, and a tendency towards boldness. He was already very well socialised when the breeder handed him over at 8 weeks old - he'd already met stacks of other dogs, people, and had lot of new experiences (he'd been carried around a busy village environment already). The breeder had done all the right things - particularly since the key socialisation window might close at 7 weeks anyway. Puppies stayed with mum, and litter mates, had an enriched, complex environment in house and garden with aunts and uncles and grandmother dogs around, plus a family of human kids and teenagers etc. All the pros say "socialise, socialise, socialise". And that's good advice, but only in general. It's likely to lead to fewer, not more, problems. In general. But - was it good advice for Charlie? No, I don't think so. I should have done 90% less socialising, and spent the time instead on impulse control. Charlie has fine frustration tolerance, I now know (from his breeding), but rubbish impulse control which is a training issue - not his genetics. On the other hand though...my very bold dog then spent months and months and months undergoing surgery and being isolated. He is a bit bonkers and very excitable but has no other significant issues although we've had to work hard on his confidence around other male dogs but have managed to sort it out it seems. So, was all that 'boldness' money in the bank when I needed it? Maybe..... So, don't know. Food for thought though.
Ok....so, thinking about dogs and hamsters....which of the following emotions do you think they can feel? You just need to answer yes or no for each one Dog Fear Joy Disgust Guilt Anger Jealousy Hampster Fear Joy Disgust Guilt Anger Jealousy
You quite often hear working gundog owners describe 'pet' Labradors as over - socialised. I think Julie explains well how this can come about. I find the whole socialisation issue very interesting. At one time, the general view was that temperament was all in the breeding - in other words, a troubled dog was the responsibility of the breeder. Then we went completely the other way and insisted all nervousness, fearfulness etc could be avoided by good socialisation, - in other words a troubled dog was the responsibility of the owner. Socialisation became a huge buzzword ten years ago. Now I think perhaps we are coming around to a more balanced acceptance of the fact that not everything is down to the way a dog is raised. And some dogs, even some breeds do genuinely have a more 'manageable' temperament than others.
I think so. When we got Hattie as a 13 week old puppy over 8 years ago, I am embarrassed to admit to not knowing a great deal about raising a puppy and only know what I do now because of the information from this forum and lots of the reading I now do on dogs. So I didn't know about socialising my puppy I just did but not to the extent I would with my next puppy. She was a school gate puppy so lots of children, tiny, tall, adults of all shapes and sizes, pushchairs, bikes, scooters, balls, running/screaming etc. etc. We also took her to puppy training and obedience classes. She always accompanied me on school, scout runs etc. All of my children had friends round for tea and sleep overs, parties etc. But I didn't take Hattie into town, on the bus, train, pet store or pub etc. Hattie is a very sociable girl and respectful of children, the elderly just everyone, she greets all dogs with respect even the two that have attacked her. She accepts all dogs that visit our home and gives up her bed too. So is that her breed or just luck? I don't know but I'm grateful for the lovely family girl we have even if it wasn't entirely down to us xxx
The best advice is probably to approach socialisation depending on an experienced assessment of the raw material you have - but that's too complex advice to give to most people. And lots of people just might not be able to hear the message that some dog breeds simply cannot be socialised enough. So blanket advice which ends up with bold Labradors (I definitely would not say all Labradors though) being over socialised, and some other dog breeds not being an actual danger to people or other dogs in later life might still be a reasonable compromise.
It's very interesting reading how charlie was reared upto 8 weeks of age Julie as it is almost the exact opposite to the way Scott and Scout were reared and I think it's safe to say Charlie's temperament is almost the exact opposite to Scott and Scout's. When I discussed S&S with the behaviourist she asked me how they'd been reared and thought that was the cause of a lot of their behaviour problems. The breeder bred working labs. S&S litter was the breeders 19th and I'm guessing he had always reared pups the same. It was a litter of 12 and mum got fed up of them quickly so was back in her kennel. They were all kept together in a loose box, I doubt they'd ever been indoors and probably the only regular human contact was the breeder. The behaviourist told me mum should've been kept with pups but given a space the pups couldn't get into, keeping them outdoors in the litter would mean suddenly being taken into a home environment away from the litter would be a big shock as well as the increase in human contact and seven weeks is too young the eighth week is very important for development. It's interesting Patricia McConnell emphasises temperament, shyness, reactivity is inherited as I don't think I did anything different with S&S than I did with murphy and he was much more like charlie and had been reared in a family home staying with mum until coming to us. He was also 12 weeks when we got him which I do think made a big difference.
Yup, it's possible, Jen, that no matter what you did, you would have ended up in the same place. Genetics plus the first 7 weeks could have pretty much set it in stone before you even took the pups home. But I've been thinking about the point - as we took Charlie to Wimbledon park and then stopped off at Waitrose on the way back. He wagged his bum happily through hoards of unpredictable kids dressed in a great deal of flappy stuff. Many who dashed up to him without a thought, or surrounded him suddenly, shouting and screaming (in the manner of the undead, but not as convincing as the real thing ). I'd do the same again around humans and the urban environment, even at the cost of less focus on me - it's worth it to have as near a completely reliable dog as you can get (and I might still have had that anyway, even if I had done nothing at all) but I'd work my socks off on early impulse control to balance it out.
I agree Julie. A dog that can cope with the unpadictableness of humans is no bad thing. When I got S&S I'd intended working them hilarious I know I discussed it with the breeder and remember him saying he wished all his pups went to homes that would work them but most go as pets. Imagine getting your first lab pup, expecting a black version of the andrex puppy and getting one like Scott or Scout. That really would be a baptism of fire but unfortunately it must happen.
I guess from this, it explains why it is so important to see both parents when choosing a puppy/a litter. I didn't realise how much WAS heritable, but this would certainly make sense.
I think EVERY new breeder of dogs should watch part II. The influence they can have in the early days is staggering... Part II Behaviour problems correlate with: Shy/anxious Reactive No/low frustration tolerance Controlling of resources* Predisposition to use mouth* * These are things PMcC added based on her own experience, but she has little scientific evidence to support. All these “sort separately” and if all present together you get the dog from hell. Genes set boundaries of behaviour, not behaviour itself. Traits are continuum – you can’t know how much impact you can have on a dog through behaviour modification until you try. You might have a big impact, or almost none. There are various temperament tests – all controversial. Lots do not have evidence of validity, but 4 do. These tests do not test for: territorial aggression, predatory aggression, intra-specific aggression. So they lack context. A dog might be fine in foster, but a nightmare when rehomed. 40% of dogs that pass shelter evaluations later exhibit signs of aggression. Shelters, trainers, owners make the same mistake – environment is everything to behaviour and how the dog will behave is dependent on its actual future environment. A lot of owners think nothing about a dog who growls time to time, or nips time to time. The general dog owning population are very, very tolerant of behaviour that is far from ideal. Every shelter organisation has to decide – whether to take a chance on some dogs, or put those dogs to sleep because they won’t take the risk of someone getting hurt. PMcC on her breeding soapbox Overwhelming evidence that a great deal of behaviour problems stem from genetics. Genetics matters and matters hugely. We are not currently effectively breeding for temperament – and no area is free from these problems. Conformation or working. The show dog with the attitude of “I own the place”: over bold dogs are not desirable. The working field Labrador bred to be “tough enough to deal with an electric collar and to take forceful handling….and then Mary and Joe Smith find they have a huge long legged horse in their living room that won’t be stopped by cold water, has incredible stamina, drive and nothing stops it. It often just doesn’t work out….” There is a profound problem with the lack of genetic diversity. The gene pools of pet dogs is now in crisis. It’s not just recessive genes – there is a factor called the MHC, it is on a microcellular level. You don’t see it looking at other genes. It’s an unconscious sensor – it’s about the immune system. This is why we have so many allergy problems. If you want to maintain a breed you MUST open the gene pool. Things that must be accepted: That line-breeding is in-breeding – just give it up and stop. That closed gene pools cannot maintain a healthy breed so we have got to accept out breeding is necessary. Get over the need for out crossing. Calculate co-efficients of in-breeding, which are crucially important. Understand that genetic diversity is crucial to a healthy breed. Impact of experiences before birth In utero experience is critically important in humans. There is a tremendous effect of factors before birth – if the mother is highly stressed it has a permanent effect. Think about what happened to mum when you buy a puppy. It’s not just about the pedigree. Androgenization – secondary male characteristic in females that are next to males in the uterus. What you get is a female with testosterone. Eg female dogs mounting other dogs. It’s a genetic glitch. Little research in dogs, but no reason it wouldn’t happen. Very likely the cause of female dogs cocking their legs. There have been some experiments – highly androgenized females are massively more successful at defending a bone against entire dogs than non-androgenised females, they will show intense aggression. And these dogs have a lot less aggression problems if they are not spayed early and are allowed 2 heat cycles (she quoted studies for all of these points but there needs to be a lot more research). Testosterone is linked to aggression, but do not think estrogen is just a benign hormone! There is a correlation between increased testorone and aggression. If a man (human) has increased T and LOST at agility then he had increased cortisol. AND SO DID HIS DOG – if the man was a competitor that used positive punishment and is rough or gruff with his dog. Early development A diverse, varied environment is key to healthy development. It’s all about environment again. Environment complexity leads to more dendritic branching in the brain. More connections, the healthier and more stable the puppy. US military developed exercises for new born puppies before day 16 – tickling pads, turning puppies around, puppies standing on a cold towel. [Warning: you need to know what you are doing, there is a potential to do harm]. Puppies had stronger hearts, better immune systems and were more stable. Weaning – there is a belief in some breeders that as soon as puppy can eat solid food mum should be removed. PMcC thinks this is a hugely negative thing to do. There is a tremendous amount of learning that goes on. Critically, frustration tolerance. Sure, give mum a break but don’t remove the mother. During weaning mums get the puppies to play instead of eat. The play bow makes the milk bar inaccessible. Socialisation Critical periods of socialisation. We don’t have a lot of facts. First definition of critical period is 3 to 7 weeks. Keep this in mind. This is WAY before puppy class. The top number has been expanded – now we think it’s 3 to 12 weeks. But no research to expand this top number. Some research done in Australia – the bottom line is that six weeks for a dog to go to a new home is way too young. Study on socialisation between 7 to 13 weeks no difference (towards people) than dogs isolated between 7 to 13 weeks. It’s a lot more complicated than we think it is. How much research have we done on puppy classes? Pretty much nothing. What has been done suggested that dogs who go to puppy classes respond better to cues but there is NO difference in terms of social responses. No more than 2 dogs should ever play in puppy class. That’s the max for sensible developing play. No more than 2 dogs playing at any one time. Internal life of dogs We can’t know what a dog’s reality is. But we can consider: Emotions Consciousness Cognition/thinking The emotional life of dogs. Emotions drives an enormous amount of behaviour. Emotions are primitive – they inform decision making. They only exists in flexible animals that need to make decisions. You can’t function without emotions. Dogs have really, really expressive faces – and their emotions are very similar to humans. But don’t make the assumption that if you have a dog without an express face, nothing is going on inside. If you can see something, it’s honest. But if you can’t, it doesn’t mean the dog doesn’t feel a huge range of powerful emotions… More on emotions in part III....
This is really interesting stuff. I think Ella had an upbringing more like Charlie's as the breeder purely breeds chocolate labs as pets, not show dogs or working dogs (although I believe they are more show line) and she does a lot of socialising with the pups before we brought Ella home. In hindsight I think we over did the socialising with Ella in the first few weeks and are now having to spend a lot of time on impulse control and I have a feeling this will be one of our main ongoing issues. We are first time dog owners and in the research I did before bringing Ella home (in hindsight I clearly didn't do enough research) everything and everyone banged on about the importance of socialising to prevent future behaviour issues. I now think that the behaviours we inadvertently encouraged are sometimes overlooked (or perhaps not addressed to the same extent) by advisors as they are not seen as serious an issue as the nervous/aggressive behaviour issues. Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that Ella is confident and comfortable in nearly all situations but I wish I'd managed those first few weeks a little differently. Loving the updates Julie, thanks for sharing ☺
I'm glad you are enjoying it. I find having a way to share my notes motivating. (Even if no-one reads them, but it's lovely if they do!). I have learned an awful lot about Charlie - about how I should best have managed him, both as a pet and at gundog training (I think his training should have been quite different from that of a working line Lab). Charlie breeder was showing her dogs, and very determined in her ambition to show dogs. It's just she was still building up, I think. But Charlie's uncle and grandmother were both at Crufts this year. His uncle in the gamekeeping ring as a working dog! Charlie is no way anywhere near show quality himself though, she would not have sold a show quality dog (actually getting hold of a good quality show dog - which I would adore to own - is very difficult, though I haven't given up ).
This is super interesting, thank you for sharing, Julie. It must take a lot of time to type this all up, and it's very much appreciated. I had never heard of androgenisation. Wow. The cortisol thing is also very interesting but understandable. Also, so interesting about the very early socialisation. I think ours had a good, but not perfect, start. They were exposed to all sorts of textures, sights and sounds from a young age and they had access to Mum until they left, albeit vastly less towards the end because she was fed up with them. They had Dad running around with them, too, but he was rather standoffish with them, but I think that may have added to them being less interested in dogs they don't know. Maybe. On the down side, they didn't see much traffic at all, nor many unfamiliar people - and I would say almost certainly no children, since they were in the middle of nowhere. Willow seemed OK with kids when we were still carrying her around, but I wonder, in hindsight, whether she was actually happy with them, or if she was giving stress signals that I was too inexperienced to see. We live and learn and I would do certain things very differently the next time round, too. Well, for a start, I wouldn't take a puppy just because I'd helped whelp them, and would do my research. I behaved very out of character getting Willow (and again, with Shadow).
I've been thinking of Julie's "game" while I've been prepping dinner. It's going to be tough to answer just "yes" or "no", since I think you all know how verbose I tend to be! Argh! Also, I suppose it depends on your definition of each word. I'm hoping that it will end up with a discussion, though. I do like a good discussion Hopefully others will be along to "play"
I think of dogs as at a similar stage to 3 year old children. Hamsters are more instinctive and rodent, not mammals so ... Dog Fear - yes Joy - yes Disgust - no Guilt - no Anger - yes Jealousy - yes Hampster Fear - yes Joy - no (but pleasure, yes) Disgust - no Guilt - no Anger - yes Jealousy - no
