Ah, thanks Ternaya - I write up notes of what I read anyway (otherwise I can't find anything again - but if I write something down, I remember it anyway ), but it's lovely people have read these and commented.
So, no-one knows for sure, but....11% of the general public don't think a hamster can feel fear.... I found disgust interesting - but I suppose finding something repelling is a useful survival tool..... [TABLE="border: 1, cellpadding: 0, cellspacing: 0"] [TR] [TD]All animals[/TD] [TD]Public[/TD] [TD]Biologists[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Disgust[/TD] [TD]33%[/TD] [TD]100%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Fear[/TD] [TD]97%[/TD] [TD]100%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Anger[/TD] [TD]68%[/TD] [TD]Majority[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Happiness/joy[/TD] [TD]98%[/TD] [TD]Majority[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Jealousy[/TD] [TD]63%[/TD] [TD]Minority[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Guilt[/TD] [TD]41%[/TD] [TD]None[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Shame[/TD] [TD]27%[/TD] [TD]None[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Animal owner beliefs [/TD] [TD]Dog[/TD] [TD]Hamster[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Fear [/TD] [TD]93%[/TD] [TD]89%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Joy[/TD] [TD]99%[/TD] [TD]91%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Anger[/TD] [TD]65%[/TD] [TD]73%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Disgust[/TD] [TD]34%[/TD] [TD]14%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Guilt[/TD] [TD]74%[/TD] [TD]15%[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Jealousy[/TD] [TD]81%[/TD] [TD]17%[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]
All very interesting, thanks Julie for sharing! At times I am glad I really had no clue about all this stuff when I acquired all of my dogs. Dog one: friend dropped off a beautiful red border collie puppy at our house and said as we had just got a house we needed a dog (we had had some prior conversations about it, but still....). Of course who could turn down a puppy? Not me. The dog was a puppy from a friend of theirs....the fellow who brought us the dog was a dairy farmer and so was the friend, I think, or maybe they were Hutterites...oh I forget. Anyway bottom line I knew absolutely nothing about puppies, or the parents, or anything! But he was a lovely dog who survived all of our mistakes and was a wonderful friend and companion who died too soon.... Dog two - I knew a little more about all this after having raised a puppy and doing research, etc so when I went to see the pups I took careful note of the mom's temperament and the pup's temperament's as well, in terms of being confident/scared. This was over 20 years ago now, I had never heard of "socialization" of puppies except in very general terms. This pup was a Border Collie/Australian Shepherd cross, and again, lived on an acerage, the dogs were basically farm dogs. We couldn't afford a purebred! This dog was also a wonderful dog, although I will admit a bit neurotic and barked at basically everything in his life, so obviously some issues there but we were an inseparable pair and I was lost when he died at 16 years old. Simba - well, also from farm dog parents, a Lab/Newfie cross, inherited him at around 9 months old from my son's girlfriend who had tried her best but basically had no clue how to raise a dog. Have no idea of his socialization or lack thereof. I knew we were getting very much an unknown but have tried my best to bring him along....and with the help of all of you have succeeded for the most part. He is really a very lovely dog for the most part. He is confident but not overly bold, loves everyone, has no neurosis or phobias that I can see, barks appropriately at strange noises/occurances but mainly is very quiet (although has discovered the joy of barking at the neighbourhood cat, which is not ideal), gets along pretty well with most dogs (sometimes he does try to hump certain dogs obsessively at the dog park I will admit but doesn't do that at other places), shows some resource guarding but this has become much better after time and training. Which is the key, of course. If Simba had landed in a different home with someone who didn't have the time/energy/desire to do the training who's to say what would have happened but I suspect a quick trip to the shelter would have been very much the reality.... I know if/when the next time comes to get a puppy I will definitely come to the search armed with much more knowledge, but really, all three of my dogs have been great pets and I probably wouldn't have looked at them twice if I had taken into account all of this stuff. Not to say it's not important, as it is, but also just to say that there is no perfect dog out there and sometimes what you think is subpar will turn out just fine in the end.....
I think there is a lot in what you say Lisa, and for sure, listening to dog behaviourists who see problem dogs day in, day out, will not reflect the general population of dogs - they are seeing the problematic ones, after all. I reckon it's true that most dogs manage to rub along with basically kind and sensible people, even if those people are learning as they go. I suspect you are kind, sensible, and intelligent enough to figure out a fair amount though! Which will be a big part of why your dogs turned out ok. It's just interesting, I think. Or, I'm interested in it anyway. Although have a pretty much completely problem free dog myself (he is nuts, but I don't find that so much of a problem now I know how to best manage his nuttiness!).
Yes, I do know what you mean, Julie! Dogs are an amazingly versatile and forgiving bunch, if you ask me, and they are pretty good at fitting in and managing almost anywhere. Bless their hearts! As for Charlie, well, a little nuttiness makes the world more interesting....
DVD part 3 – CANNOT believe that has taken me nearly 2 months to get to part 3.... Most dogs who go through rescue have some form of PTSD - it’s like a short cut in their brain that says react NOW. You’ve done it yourself in a modest way – walking down a dark street and hear a noise and you SPOOK. Natural – because that’s the difference between life and death – that rush of fear saves you when it really is the lion about to pounce out of a tree. Need to understand it. It's about: Anxiety and increased emotional arousal, Avoidance and/or emotional numbing, Intrusive memories. First 2 - ok. But we do not know the intrusive memories appear in dogs. Pat McD thinks she has seen dogs that she thinks are having nightmares. Many species of mammals have REM sleep – and their brains appear the same in REM sleep as ours. [As an aside here, Pat McD talks about what happens in rat’s brains when they sleep – they run the maze. This is why performance on something learned improves after sleep]. Here is what we can do about dogs that are hyper reactive (for whatever reason It is NOT enough to just train. Classical condition is important. Help the dog avoid triggers. Can also have an impact on the animal’s internal physiology. Diet – wraps [I have sent a message to Pat McD asking her to discuss wraps in her blog because I’m doubtful about them], she also talked about a form of yoga and autistic children – I have to say, I felt she was…er…waffling at this point, and I was a little disappointed. Hmm….oh dear…. Nevermind... ---- Talking about GUILT. 74% of people think dogs feel guilt. (Yikes! Daft people). Recap of Horowitz 2009 research, Hecht and Gacsi, 2011 – I’ve already read all this. It basically proves dogs don’t feel guilt but react to their owner’s mannerisms in scolding the dog. We know this already. On the one hand, people idolise dogs – all of our virtues and none of our vices – when you ask them about dogs in general. When you say “why did your dog do that?” they have the MOST NEGATIVE ATTRIBUTIONS POSSIBLE “he’s doing it just to get back at me!”. (Hee, hee, we see this on the forum). People make very different judgments about groups v individuals. ---- Talking about JEALOUSY. Secondary emotion. Not saying a dog could NEVER sort of feel a secondary emotion like guilt, never say never…..but it’s rare, and it requires a complex understanding. But jealousy – don’t see the complexity of jealousy. Just a form of anger, frustration. I want it, he’s getting it, I want it, I’m mad. But most scientists are uncomfortable even saying primates feel jealousy, let alone dogs. VIDEO – of dogs being tested in pairs of dogs being asked to ‘give paw’. One dog got treats, the other didn’t. Dog who did not get treats obviously put out about it. Does not happen if other dog getting rewarded is absent. Lots of primates are also sensitive to reward inequity – but are also sensitive to what the reward is. But dogs are not – they are only sensitive to whether or not there is a reward. Most owners say their dogs get jealous (blimey, Charlie does – if OH gives me a cuddle, Charlie want in on that! ). Description of dogs being jealous is exactly the same as pre verbal human children do – pushing in, attention seeking etc. If it walks like a duck…. Dogs who are jealous and have no impulse control end up in dog fights (over resources). REALLY interesting section on research about dogs choosing the FAIR trainer! [Can’t write it up, it’s too long]. ---- Frustration is a motivation for dis-obedience and aggression For some reason, humans do not intuitively understand that dogs get frustrated just like humans. ---- COGNITION Video showing crows dropping nuts in traffic and collecting the bits without getting run over – pedestrian crossings are ideal. Drop the nut, cars crush it, wait for lights to stop the traffic…collect cracked nut in safety. Some anecdotal evidence that music can calm dogs (this DEFINITELY works with Charlie!). [Long section on chimps understanding numbers]. Useful definition of cognition (there’s loads of impractical ones The formation of an abstract mental representation of an event or object external to self and not physically present. A sight, smell, sound….stored in the brain…..And the ability to manipulate those representations to solve a problem. Lots of examples using parrots (can teach language to demonstrate cognition). Example of parrot trained to used language, left at vet, parrot calls to owner “I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I love you” as owner leaves. Argghhhh….dogs just can’t talk. Do dogs understand abstractions? Yes. (Demonstrated by Ken Ramirez). Dogs can demonstrate fast mapping, and match to sample and not match to sample (pick the different thing). Traditional understanding was that wolves are better at problem solving than wolves. More recent research comparing dingos and dogs also shows dingos do better. This is consistent with other research studies. Wild type canids better at domestic dogs. Dogs look to their owners. Is this a smarter solution? They have slaves….and this is a good thing in human/dog relationship. Can dogs imitate? This requires self-awareness. Some measure of empathy (your leg, my leg). Primates can imitate. The jury is out on dogs being able to imitate. No evidence of true imitation. Smart dogs are no fun. There is a reason why the most popular dogs are not the smartest (Labradors? ). ---- COMMUNICATION Dogs are excellent communicators. Growls, barks have different meanings. Play growls are shorter and higher pitched (thunder sounds like the ultimate low pitched threatening growl). Tail wagging – does not mean a dog is happy. Apart from circle wag – this ALWAYs means the dog is happy (yay! Find those dummies). A tail wag is like a smile – doesn’t always means you are happy. Research on asymmetric tail wagging – dog presented with owner – wag to the right. Left side bias to unfamiliar assertive dog. Pay attention, watch your dog! Fascinating research by Michelle Wan – showed vids to experts, trainers etc and had them categorise emotions. Then showed them to thousands of people. Choose happy, sad, fearful etc. and rate safe/unsafe, relaxed/stressed etc. Big lesson: if you want to understand dogs, watch them, be a great observer, VIDEO dogs and watch those videos. Just watch the behaviour. Inexperienced dog owners will say their dog is fine, when it clearly is not. Dogs have evolved to understand humans –better than chimps or wolves? Pat McD says dogs DO NOT inherently understand human pointing gestures. In reliable studies, dogs do not do better than wolves. Dogs can easily be trained to understand a point, but they learn it, they do not come understanding a human point. ---- TRAINING The evidence: (Harsh/force methods described by Pat McD are hard lead jerks and harsh verbal “Nos!”). Harsh based training correlates with negative effects. Dogs trained only with reward based methods are more likely to interact with strangers and are more playful than those trained with any punishment. Dogs trained only with rewards better at novel training tasks. Dogs that receive positive punishment more likely to have behaviour problems. But….the experience of a trainer is the biggest influencer in the success of dogs at advanced levels, not the methods used to train. So, those with the most experience are often those using force based methods. Research: Arhant et al App An Beh 2010, very large sample of dogs and owners: Small dogs are more nervous, aggressive and receive less training than large dogs. (Yay! Sorry, but those White Highland Terriers….)…small dogs are subject to more positive punishment and inconsistent behaviour from their owners (so it’s not their fault) – but these are causal factors in increasing anxious and fearful behaviour. Clicker training Dogs clicker trained are significantly faster, a LOT faster, to learn behaviour than dogs trained by a verbal marker (or bridge). This is all about bio-acoustics. A click has instant on set and instant off set. Has power in a huge range of frequency. It’s a perfect broadband sound. If you have a broadband sound, it turns the whole switchboard. So much more effective than a word.
Thanks for this write-up, Julie, very interesting. I love the part about the wag to the left vs right. I've read that before (maybe in The Other End of the Leash?) and need to watch out for it. Is there a suggestion that a wag (to the left, to the unfamiliar, assertive dog) is a calming signal, or, rather, an assertive statement in its own right?
On imitation, I saw this on the BBC news site this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-35159786 And a link to the study (which I've only read the abstract of http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/2/12/150505
On the first one, I don't think she meant mirroring. She gave the example of sitting in front of a child (or chimp) and patting your face and encouraging the child/chimp to do likewise. You can get the child/chimp to pat its own face which involves being able to relate its face and hands to yours, and repeat the action. So the child/chimp has self awareness. It is interesting though, I'm always amused by how I can get Charlie to go to sleep if I look at him and slowly close my eyes. Obviously, when he is already laying down and a bit snoozy, it doesn't work during a mad hoolie.
Ah, yes, well, imitating across species would be a lot more complex. I wonder how much is because of the different way a dog's brain works and whether any of it is due to the very different physiology. I've done the eyes thing with my two, too. I'd say mirroring of facial movements is quite common; if Shadow is relaxed and happy, he'll tilt his head the same way as I do, will open his mouth in a doggy smile if I change my face to look excited... but, again, I couldn't say that was him adjusting his expressions to match mine, or if it's a reaction to the perceived emotion in my face. If I look sleepy, he knows it's OK to relax; if I look happy, he'll also be happy; if I look quizzical and tilt my head with a furrowed brown, he responds by wondering what I'm thinking about...
JulieT and snowbunny, based on the last two posts from each of you I think you might like https://www.dognition.com/ One of the "games" you participate in to form the evaluation is a mimicry test. I did the whole thing with Oban, bought the book too though you are not required to. The book is fascinating, delves into many things mentionned in this thread. Oh, Oban's evaluation came out as Charmer.
Posting this here, because it's on the theme, and I got to it via PMcC's blog. Although, this person is SERIOUSLY mistaken if she thinks Cusco has good eyeliner. she seriously needs to meet the forum's own Debbie Harry @Oberon http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...dogs-are-dogs/
