"The Evidence" forum rule

Discussion in 'The Labrador Site' started by Berna, Nov 20, 2016.

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  1. Berna

    Berna Registered Users

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    I'd like to point out a few things here and if you find it inappropriate, please delete. I am not looking to start a debate nor change the rules. I don't like breaking the rules no matter how ridiculous they sound to me. I am talking about this thread - arthritis in labradors , which is currently locked.

    I've been picked up by a forum member for giving advice without evidence. I didn't know the rules, so fair enough. However, if you look at the other replies on the topic, you will see other supplements recommended, like YuMove, green lipped mussel and fish oil, no one stated evidence for. We all know that the results of studies of the effectiveness of glucosamine and chondroitine supplements are inconclusive. Yet, the problem was that I mentioned the golden paste, which I've been giving to my dog for years now with no issues.

    Personally, I don't understand why my mentioning of the golden paste was such big of a deal and someone else mentioning green lipped mussel wasn't. They can be both dismissed as "rubbish" or compared to "grapes and raisins" due to lack of clinical studies for their effectiveness.

    You have your rules - fine. But then please, apply to all. And not by personal preference. Agreed, Lintbells is making its supplement from green lipped mussel, but that is no evidence that it's working. Besides, Royal Canin has a kibble formula for dogs with mobility issues with turmeric added. Yep, that doesn't prove anything either. I am just trying to understand how you are selecting your evidence.

    Thank you and again, sorry for bothering you.

    PS. I am by no means selling anything, which is, I guess, more than obvious. Besides, turmeric is cheap and you can find it in your local store, and everyone can make the golden paste ;)
     
  2. Oberon

    Oberon Moderator Forum Supporter

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    It is fair to expect that all such claims are treated the same. But I think that evidence was actually requested in relation to those other supplements (eg I definitely recall that it was requested in relation to Yumove).
     
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  3. MF

    MF Registered Users

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    Re turmeric - you will find research on it. Apparently clinical evidence in humans is unreliable yet studies using animals and lab studies find the active ingredient, curcumin, may have anti inflammatory properties. Just google "turmeric Stanford" to find some research done. Furthermore epidemiological studies link turmeric to fewer numbers of people with Alzheimer's.
     
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  4. Beanwood

    Beanwood Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Yes that was me and it was regarding Yomove Advance (we have to be specific regarding formulations as this is formulation with the clinical evidence behind it.) Yumove Advance was prescribed after lengthy discussions with an orthopaedic vet, the decision to prescribe was based on clinical evidence, and after reviewing Xrays to confirm diagnosis. Follow up appointments were then booked to assess progress.

    A true evidence base in OA in dogs is going to be very challenging, due to the other treatments involved which will confound the results ie reducing weight, a tailored exercise plan, such as swimming, possibly diet modification, to rule out pro inflammatory responses. Achieving conclusive evidence is going to be difficult, more so in dogs, They can't just say..oh I feel much better. The disease is so variable that it is hard to attribute improvement as a a drug effect or down to the management regime.

    The study I mentioned with Yumove Advance (methodology and rationale) was designed by the RCVS. The trial was also conducted by the RCVS. The trial was robust in design, double blind, placebo controlled and crossover. There was a huge amount of info in the study..however in summary there was a positive improvement ( statistically significant) effect on exercise in the dogs studied, however, the owner evaluations didn't show a statistical benefit. I don't think the study is available on line, this is not unusual, especially if not yet submitted for publication.

    I think we do have to be careful when citing "anecdotal" evidence absolutely! Saying that, I think it is perfectly acceptable, if a medication or treatment such as acupuncture is recommended by a vet, and indeed carried out by a vet. Let's be sensible please on this. We are not all medics, when the advice given though is in the spirit of the forum, and it's rules this ought to be considered and a little thoughtfulness given where it's due.

    Now then, do I now need to cite a reference for acupuncture for dogs with OA? :) (tongue in cheek ) :)
     
  5. editor

    editor Administrator

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    The rule about evidence is there to establish the principle. Of course we cannot police every thread or ensure that every single anecdote is supported by evidence.

    However, when a claim for medical efficacy is made, if I see it, or if someone else who cares about evidence sees it, the rule establishes that person's right to ask for evidence to be made in support of that claim.

    Likewise, if you see a post claiming a medical benefit for a product that you suspect may not have a benefit, you are entitled to ask the poster to give us a link to evidence supporting their claim.

    We cannot stop unsuspecting people giving their dogs treatments that don't work, or failing to take their dogs to a vet in favour of home remedies. But we can promote the principles of giving dogs and other pets, access to evidence based medicine. And we can and should try to make sure that fake and quack remedies are never promoted here.

    That is why I made the rule. And while there is no need to worry about implementing it 'to the letter', the principle of the rule will stand.

    Just to clarify

    A claim was made that turmeric reduces inflammation.
    I don't know whether it does or not, I have not researched it, but I totally support the right of anyone on this forum to challenge that claim

    Yes it is fair, and a good aim, even though we will undoubtedly fall short at times.
     
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