The pox of popular sires

Interesting article by Carol Beuchat, from The Institute of Canine Biology: The pox of popular sires

 

Re: The pox of popular sires

Very interesting, and very important! It is up to breed clubs to act on this kind of thing, as there is no real incentive for individual breeders, making individual choices, to act in the interests of the breed as a when when choosing a sire.

Rare breeds probably could benefit from a breeding management program to avoid excessive inbreeding, like they do with zoo animals.

 

Re: The pox of popular sires

Interesting

 

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Extremely interesting i paid for the enhanced pedigree for Bruce and found that FTCh Aughacasla Sam of Drakeshead appears on the sire once and twice on the dams side

I remember when i was looking through champ dogs and that dog would appear a lot in pedigree's so i guess he's a extremely popular stud dog

 

Re: The pox of popular sires

Wow - indeed, very informative, useful and thought-provoking. Thank you.

 

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Interesting,
But what about health testing, Current Clear BVA Eye Certificates and PRA, CNM, SD2 also x-rays for hips and elbows to try and reduce the chance of a bad gene being passed on.
I am sure most reputable breeders would expect this of stud dogs they use, but there are the ones that don't.

[quote author=chris link=topic=6292.msg83265#msg83265 date=1401410683]
Extremely interesting i paid for the enhanced pedigree for Bruce and found that FTCh Aughacasla Sam of Drakeshead appears on the sire once and twice on the dams side

I remember when i was looking through champ dogs and that dog would appear a lot in pedigree's so i guess he's a extremely popular stud dog
[/quote]
If you look at most pedigrees you will see dogs used on both sides of the family tree, dogs more so than bitches.

Just had a quick look at one of my dogs pedigree, there is a dog used twice on one side and once on the other, and 2 others used twice once on each side? complicated?

 

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Health testing doesn't pick up the recessive genes that are yet to manifest themselves in the form of an observable problem.... That's the problem, or one of them.

 

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[quote author=Oberon link=topic=6292.msg83351#msg83351 date=1401443155]
Health testing doesn't pick up the recessive genes that are yet to manifest themselves in the form of an observable problem.... That's the problem, or one of them.
[/quote]
If that is the case, what future is there for pedigree dog breeds?

 

Re: The pox of popular sires

Before I got a Clumber spaniel I didn't think too much about the ins and outs of breeding. The terms 'line breeding', 'in breeding', 'out crossing', 'popular sire' etc. didn't really mean anything to me. I didn't know what COI meant and I also didn't know what challenges breeders of a rare breed like the Clumber spaniel are faced with.
Most of you will know that Ziggy is a working Clumber. Working Clumber spaniels look quite different to their show cousins. They are lighter, more athletic, their faces are open, not jowly and wrinkled. Their eyes are far less droopy, and they don't have the beetle brow that show Clumbers have. But the differences don't stop there. Working Clumbers have much improved hip scores, many of them in single figures, whilst HD in show Clumbers is still a big problem. Temperament wise I have never met a working Clumber with an iffy temperament, but I have seen a certain grumpiness in a number of show Clumbers. And last but not least working Clumbers can and do actually work amazingly well in the field, and I have yet to see one show bred Clumber to work at that sort of level. If it wasn't for the existence of working Clumbers I wouldn't own a Clumber, because the show variety doesn't convince me looks wise, temperament wise, health wise nor working ability wise.
To achieve a dog so different from the show Clumber, breeders a couple of decades ago went about a very selective breeding program and only bred from dogs with lower than average for the breed hip scores, dogs that could work all day long and were biddable, and sound temperament wise. That sort of breeding program produced some 'popular sires', without a doubt, but it also brought about the working Clumber of today that I love so much.
The dilemma the breeders of working Clumbers today are facing is how to lower the COI ( co-efficient of inbreeding, something ALL pedigree dogs have) without dipping back into show blood and possibly compromising hips, eyes, working ability and temperament of future generations of working Clumbers.
Fascinating and complex subject!

 

Re: The pox of popular sires

Thanks, Heidrun, for that really informative take on your experience. Wonder what the KC is going to do about it? Although given the state of many show dogs now, I'm suspecting not a lot.

A very interesting article - next step would be for the geneticists to come up with a cunning plan!

 

Re: The pox of popular sires

My cocker Murffi was sired by a so-called popular sire. Maesydderwen Scimitar has been the most prolific of studs in working cockers since the '50s. Murffi's COI is very high, higher than any of my other dogs and yet he is probably the healthiest amongst my lot. He has never had a day's illness and despite living in the fast lane has never injured himself. He is also one of the best looking cockers I have ever seen and has unbelievable stamina. In some of our darker training moments I have called him 'poxy cocker' though. : Next time he does something embarrassing I might blame his mis-demeanours on the pox of his popular sire.

 

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;D ;D ;D

 

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[quote author=gad link=topic=6292.msg83372#msg83372 date=1401445458]
Wonder what the KC is going to do about it?
[/quote]

For all their faults regarding show dogs and breed standards, the Kennel Club are developing some useful tools to help breeders and puppy buyers regarding COI (and indeed health checks). You can check the COI of your own dog here:
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/inbreed/Default.aspx

And can check out the potential COI of particular combinations of dogs here, if you are a breeder selecting a sire for example:
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/kinship/Default.aspx

 

Re: The pox of popular sires

Now that is really useful!

 

Re: The pox of popular sires

That is a very good question, and one that it would seem canine geneticists are none too optimistic about. Breeders on the other hand seem unwilling to discuss the very real problems inherent in closed registry breeding.

Somewhere, there will need to be a compromise, probably involving outcrossing in a number of breeds, possibly ultimately in every breed.

I don't see this as a huge problem, provided type, temperament and ability are maintained. But to many breeders it is pure heresy.

 

Re: The pox of popular sires

[quote author=heidrun link=topic=6292.msg83405#msg83405 date=1401452612]
He is also one of the best looking cockers I have ever seen
[/quote]

Too right.

Pictures! Murffi pictures required! ;D ;D

 

Re: The pox of popular sires

Topically, I found this article on The Field's website:

http://www.thefield.co.uk/gundogs/inbreeding-and-line-breeding-in-working-dogs-21284

(p.s. Murffii...sigh )

 

Re: The pox of popular sires

[quote author=heidrun link=topic=6292.msg83405#msg83405 date=1401452612]
My cocker Murffi was sired by a so-called popular sire. Maesydderwen Scimitar has been the most prolific of studs in working cockers since the '50s. Murffi's COI is very high, higher than any of my other dogs and yet he is probably the healthiest amongst my lot. He has never had a day's illness and despite living in the fast lane has never injured himself. He is also one of the best looking cockers I have ever seen and has unbelievable stamina. In some of our darker training moments I have called him 'poxy cocker' though. : Next time he does something embarrassing I might blame his mis-demeanours on the pox of his popular sire.
[/quote]

Would his COI deter you from breeding from him, I'm thinking of your post previous? I looked up my own pup's COI, it's 7.2% versus the Labradors breed average of 6.4. Just to save me a bit of time searching round the internet and getting the usual 64 different answers what is the goal of COI? Less than 5%, less than that?

Another edit! We're registerered wit the MyKC part of the KC website and you can enter trial matings there to see the COI outcome, you can also see the health test and likely outcomes of that too. A great resource for breeders.

 

Re: The pox of popular sires

With regards to breeding from Murffi, he was already neutered when I got him, so that is not a question I have ever asked myself.

In an ideal world it would be desirable to aim for a COI lower than the breed average when planning a litter. The individual COI of the parent dogs is immaterial, what matters is the COI of the puppies that two dogs will produce if mated. The average COI for each breed varies from year to year depending on the puppies born and registered in the last 12 months.

When looking at the COI reading that mate select will give you it is most important to also look at the number of generations that have gone into the calculation. Those vary from dog to dog and depend on the records the KC have on individual dogs.

To me personally COI is only one consideration, not the only consideration, when breeding. Health tests, sound temperament and working ability are more important to me personally. I have spoken to Dr Tom Lewis from the KC who was instrumental in setting up mate select, about COI in a rare breed like the Clumber spaniel. In his view it is more important to tackle the very real problems of bad hips and bad eyes within the breed first and then make it a long term goal to bring the COI down.

 

Re: The pox of popular sires

Thanks, Heidrun - excellent explanation! Now, if we could get all breeders to heed your advice....