Re: The right diet [quote author=Oberon link=topic=10177.msg149304#msg149304 date=1426284430] Julie, I'd be interested in why it hasn't been recommended for Charlie. Maybe because he doesn't have any arthritic changes yet and they only prescribe it if there are changes? As I mentioned, we gave it to Obi as a preventative - but that doesn't mean there are studies to support its use in that way. [/quote] Me too...it's possible that it was because there was no arthritic changes (or there wasn't at least when the last set of x-rays were done). But if it's a preventative and safe, I'd be keen to have it anyway...they would have known that though. Anyway, I'll ask. I have several vets to compare opinions (I do think they confer though, when they know I'm coming ;D ;D ;D ).
Re: The right diet Monty has been on cartophen injections every month since HD diagnosis at 6 months, as a preventative treatment to delay the onset of arthritis. I googled it when I got back home, and was surprised to see very little mention of it on UK sites, this forum, other specialist websites, etc - apart from the main Australian website. I don't think our local vet is at the absolute cutting edge of treatments, so was surprised to find so little use of it in the UK We used to think it gave him a bit of a pep for a few days after he had it, but now 8 months in we notice little difference - and as he now has severe ED diagnosis it certainly didn't slow down the development of that. The monthly injections are alongside daily nutriquin + supplements, on an indefinite basis While all this is covered on insurance, we will continue down this path. If price became a factor, we may reconsider... however it's hard to judge as maybe his condition would have progressed even faster without them? Off to orthopaedic vet on Monday for a chat about potential elbow surgery - and our own vet threw in a curve ball today and mentioned an elbow replacement 'pack' that could be an option. Just a month ago he told me replacements on elbows were out of the question; too costly / complicated / rare. Frequently confused by the information I get sometimes....
Re: The right diet Not 100% sure, but from memory, james wellbeloved large breed has joint supplements in. It rings a bell because Amber isn't quite 25kg but bigger kibble pieces and joint supplements sounded great to me so she's on large breed anyway. Her weight is great, poo pretty good (and not much of it) and has a lovely coat so might be worth looking into.
Re: The right diet The specialist and vet have mentioned the possibility of an injection if Juno continues to limp which I presume is the cartophen/pentosan bjt they would have to do a blood test for liver and kidney function first and that she could have the injection until she was a year old anyway. Keeping fingers crossed that I don't have to consider that route at all as am loathe for her to keep needing injections - I know how painful it can be after having a steroid injection in my knee.
Re: The right diet Pentosan is just given under the skin It's not like an injection into the joint, which must've really hurt!!!
Re: The right diet Don't think my vet is talking about the same thing then as I know the Orthopaedic mentioned an injection into the joint. Natalie will be thinking of you and Monty on Monday and hope you vet a positive outcome on what to do next. I know you can have elbow replacements, they're just not so common as hips as it is a more complex joint. I've found "Supervet" from the TV programme's website very helpful. Masses of information I didn't understand but lots of info on what they can do. You can google Noel Fitzpatrick or FitzpatrickReferrals. He's doing amazing work for dogs and cats. I tink if I was in the UK I would have been asking for a referral to him for Juno.
Re: The right diet MaccieD, your vet might have been talking about a cortisone injection, which is into the joint.
Re: The right diet Might have been a cortisone injection but it's very specific that it can't be until Juno is a year old and needs blood tests first. They didn't do that when I had cortisone in my knee.....
Re: The right diet [quote author=JulieT link=topic=10177.msg149305#msg149305 date=1426284795] [quote author=Oberon link=topic=10177.msg149304#msg149304 date=1426284430] Julie, I'd be interested in why it hasn't been recommended for Charlie. Maybe because he doesn't have any arthritic changes yet and they only prescribe it if there are changes? As I mentioned, we gave it to Obi as a preventative - but that doesn't mean there are studies to support its use in that way. [/quote] Me too...it's possible that it was because there was no arthritic changes (or there wasn't at least when the last set of x-rays were done). But if it's a preventative and safe, I'd be keen to have it anyway...they would have known that though. Anyway, I'll ask. I have several vets to compare opinions (I do think they confer though, when they know I'm coming ;D ;D ;D ). [/quote] So I had a long conversation with the ortho vet this morning... He said that he does use Cartrophen a lot, but only in dogs that are showing signs of arthritis. He said that he didn't think it acted effectively as a preventative, but it can be like a miracle drug for some dogs showing symptoms. He said that in his experience it makes a terrific difference to about 50% of dogs, helps a bit or not at all in others (he then went into a long explanation about molecular structures and genetics to explain why it works in some dogs and not others which I didn't follow very well). He also said it's not without side effects, in particular blood clotting and liver function can be affected. So, in summary, because there can be some side effects, and it's not proven as a preventative, it's not something that's suitable for Charlie who is not showing any signs of arthritis. Interestingly, on supplements, he said that EFA has been proven to work and quoted (at some length) the results of a double blind study carried out by the Liverpool vet school, with no funding by the manufacturers, that did show improvement over time in the joint functions of dogs. I understand this was in dogs all showing signs of arthritis so still no idea if it helps prevent the onset of problems. But he strongly recommended that I continue to give Synoquin EFA. Anyway, I'm sure bits of that are debatable, but I was happy with the details he was able to provide, and came away feeling confident. Tomorrow Charlie is going in to be sedated and to have his knees, elbows and hips x-rayed. We've decided to do this because of the clicking in his knee joint, and some stiffness we observed at Christmas - although there are no signs there is anything significantly wrong, after a long discussion we decided that the risk is small (it's just sedation, not a full GA), and the benefits of being able to compare the joints with the original x-rays from a year ago is worthwhile. Plus, we can check out his ears and teeth while we are at it. Hips are getting done again along with knees because there can be wear and tear on hips if the knee joint is altered, and elbows are getting done just because we might as well to do a comparison with the ones that were done when Charlie was young. This will allow us to assess whether Charlie continuing with his gundog training is the best thing for him given his injury - my vet also takes his Labradors to gundog training and is of the opinion it's the best thing for a silly juvenile Chocoloate Labrador like Charlie to do, but the x-rays will help us decide that it's physically ok for him too. Charlie jumped up at the vet and left two perfect muddy paw prints on the front of his very clean trousers...that'll teach the vet to call him a silly juvenile Chocolate... :-[ : ;D ;D ;D
Re: The right diet All makes sense to me. Generally it is considered to be a very safe drug though so when we were recommended it as a preventative we thought 'why not'. But I would not be surprised if it makes no difference at all to a normal, healthy joint. It's good that you had the chance to have a good chat about it Hope all the xray results are good
Re: The right diet Finally got around to translating some of the information from the specialist and the treatment he is talking about is Trocoxyl/Trocoxil which is normally given in tablet form but only for a year onwards for a maximum course of 6.5 months (just googled it and been reading up). Keeping my fingers crossed that we don't have to go down that route too soon as she's only coming up 9 months this week. A fat of life is that she will suffer from osteoarthritis at some point in her right elbow as the ulna is too long for the joint. It was described to me as being like permanently wearing a pair of shoes the wrong size...... Just a thought getting back to the original diet query, I've discovered that Hills produce a version of the j/d prescription in a calorie reduced form with less fat. Specialist says this would be ideal for Juno as we will need to closely manage her weight.
Re: The right diet We were advised by our specialist to put Dyson on Hills j/d reduced calorie as well. Ideally he could lose a couple of kilos and then maintain that weight. It has also been suggested to try Skinners duck and rice...haven't decided which one yet... ???
Re: The right diet Hill's j/d has been recommended by the vet and seconded by the Orthopaedic Surgeon for her elbow dysplasia. We had some concern about weight management due to the fat content of the standard but we've received a big thumbs up for the calorie controlled version. Now need to find out if my vet can get this version in France or whether need to buy online and have it delivered....... I think I've decided to go for the Hills rather than Skinners because it's the vets and the specialists recommendation.
