Okay. I'm a bit stuck with this, not sure what to do A little background, for new members Almost a year ago we "inherited" Simba from my son's girlfriend. He was about a year old (although I thought he was younger at the time, didn't find out exactly for a few months). He had been given so e basic training, but had also had an owner who really didn't know how to deal with him and he spent a lot of time in her bedroom while she was out working. He had learned to ignore "come", the owner told us not to let him off lead as he would not come back. So I am working with him to teach recall using the whistle, we are making slow steps on that but progress, I think. I am trying to teach Simba fetch, as a way to keep him focused on me when I DO take him off leash, also to help him get more exercise, due to not being off leash very often. He really wasn't too interested in fetch at first, he would go get the ball, but what he really wants to do is play "keep away". So I have been using treats to get him to bring the ball back and give it to me, with limited success. Now, he is excited to see his ball, will run after it with enthusiasm, but it's a toss up whether he will lie down and chew on it, or stand with it in his mouth, or bring it back. If he doesn't bring it back I will call him, turn and run away, sound excited, etc, eventually he will run after me. I don't see much improvement in this, I can't seem to figure out what to do to make him want to bring it back and excited for another throw. :-\
Re: The trouble with fetch.... I think it's hugely positive that he chases the ball - that is the main thing. So, I had a bit of a journey with my Charlie. He brought the ball back fine, but when I moved to a dummy when he was 6 months old that was a completely different story. Then, he thought "Nah! Much more fun to get her to chase me for it!". I never did, of course. But he still thought killing it, running round with it, or just having it, was better than giving it to me. I had very professional help at the time. I had two really good gundog trainers, who worked super hard on this. Walking away, running away, stopping him getting to me, inspecting a hedge and ignoring him, a very embarrassing exercise where I sat in the middle on Wimbledon Common with "chicken in the crotch" getting him to come in close! :-[ : :-[ :. And so on. Stood in gaps in hedges, in retrieving corridors, between him and crate/bed/food. What waste of time that all was. Honestly. I paid a lot in gundog lessons to look at hedges! (I don't mean to be critical of the trainers, they were very skilled, and I learned a lot from them - just not bringing back the dummy). Anyway, clicker trained it. Worked brilliantly. Followed the steps in the gundog trust books. It was great fun (although at the time I was a novice - still am - and got coached through it on the forum). Now, I just think why not adopt such a structured approach right away? I showed the gundog trainer our clicker trained results and she helped me build on it and phase out the clicker. Fab! Here we are in the kitchen, about half way through our journey (by the way, I am embarrassed by this now, I'm much better these days! https://www.flickr.com/photos/97932779@N08/10409703626/ But this isn't complete without all the tips I got to improve, here: http://www.thelabradorforum.com/index.php?topic=2996.msg31617#msg31617
Re: The trouble with fetch.... Thanks Julie! Well...so maybe I should start inside, then, just doing what you are doing, but with a ball, not a dummy? I don't have anything against a dummy, but it's just that I have a ball. Just try the toss it, he gives it to me, he gets a click and treat?
Re: The trouble with fetch.... Dummy or ball, doesn't matter, I don't think. Well...you probably have to see what he does inside with a ball, first off. I started by putting a dummy by my feet...whoosh - dummy and dog disappeared into his crate in a dummy love fest (unless I was stood between him and his crate and then dummy and dog of disappeared to the attic :-\ ). So, I shaped approaching me with the dummy...and worked from there... I'm too embarrassed now to post my earlier vids of this! (And can't even find them now). I think getting hold of step by step instructions was key for me.
Re: The trouble with fetch.... Working on this...he's much better coming back straight away, which is good. I don't throw the ball far, although sometimes it rolls, but he gets it and comes straight back. But now there's a lot of the chomp, chomp, chomp on the ball before he gives it up. He often doesn't give it until I tell him "give". So. I guess, I shouldn't give the command, just wait for him to give it up?
Re: The trouble with fetch.... If you don't want him to chomp the ball, and hand it over right away, then I think you need to start a step earlier. Just on the pick up and hand over without chomping - no throwing or fetch involved - you later string everything together. I'll see whether I can find my vids (I did it all wrong, at first, so you'll also have to read the comments about what I was doing wrong). There is a pro vid here: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6oFO9Z0oHBA
Re: The trouble with fetch.... Okay, thanks Julie. It's not so much that I care whether or not he chomps it per se, I mean, I'm not ultimately doing this for gun dog stuff. But the trouble with the chomping is that it interferes with the "come back quick". When I was doing it in the garden he would get the ball and then stand and chomp the ball, waiting for me to chase after him to get it. So I would prefer to eliminate that if possible. Might be too ingrained at this point?? I dunno. We'll see. Don't worry, you can't have done this any worse than I am.... : It's early morning here... Later (much later :) when the girl gets up I'll get her to video me, you'll see my errors in full colour!!
Re: The trouble with fetch.... Lisa, I am eliminating the chomping by going back a step, so I put the ball on the floor, Charlie picks it up and as soon as he drops it with no chomping I C&T and he has completely got that in 3 x 5 minute sessions. I am going to do another few sessions and then C&T for putting the ball into my hand. It took me a few sessions to get my timing spot on : I have started this in my kitchen when nobody else is around so that we can both concentrate x
Re: The trouble with fetch.... Yes, I see. I think you should still do the pick up and hand over then - in short rapid repeats. Maybe with higher value treats? See if you can get to pickup - handover - click and treat - pick up - handover - click and treat. So he is rushing to hand over for the treat? No distance or throw, just ingrain that what happens after a pick up is a hand over - quickly? Maybe a pro will be along in a bit to advise. But a vid would be great.
Re: The trouble with fetch.... Okay, here is our video. We didn't do so well...you will see the chomping problem, also the inept clicking problem, also the problem of him dropping the ball and it rolls away, also you get a slice of my husband speaking on the phone in the background....just a normal night, I guess : Anyhoo....I know we need help!! [flash=https://www.flickr.com/apps/video/stewart.swf?v=145061]http://width="400" height="225" flashvars="intl_lang=en-us&photo_secret=462b1fdf63&photo_id=14093133238" bgcolor="#000000" allowFullScreen="true"[/flash] Edit by Rachael to add link that I think is to the correct video.... https://www.flickr.com/photos/31088481@N03/14093133238/
Re: The trouble with fetch.... I won't watch the vid because it's 5am here and I'll and hubby! But will watch in morning. I'd suggest starting with you holding the dummy and getting him to grasp it while it's in your hand, then build up to him holding it without your hand on it, then dropping it into your hand. So, start at the end and work backwards to the beginning (backwards chaining).
Re: The trouble with fetch.... From this thread: http://www.thelabradorforum.com/index.php?topic=2733.0 [quote author=Oberon link=topic=2733.msg29184#msg29184 date=1381365377] [quote author=JulieT link=topic=2733.msg27877#msg27877 date=1380382131] Interesting, in the book, the method is to present the dummy, rather than having the dummy on the floor, and work downwards in gradual distances until the dummy is on the floor. [/quote] This is sort of the way I did it. If you present the dummy by hand you can encourage the dog to grip it in the middle. You have more control as you can shape 'grasp the dummy in the middle, not wherever you feel like it'. If you present it initially with a hand at each end that helps to guide the dog into the middle too. With Obi, I presented by hand (instead of getting him to pick up off the floor) and he did not get a click/treat unless he grabbed the dummy in the middle (initially I just asked for a touch). If you haven't read them have a look at this series of articles which are linked to in this Totally Gundogs article: http://totallygundogs.com/clicker-trained-retrieve/ I started with the stuff described in the sections 'Delivering to hand', 'Into your hand' and 'The dog becomes responsible' in the article 'Clicker Retrieve Part 4'. I kind of start at the end and work backwards ('backwards chaining'). I held the dummy and used the clicker to shape touching the dummy, then grasping the dummy while I held it, then taking and holding the dummy without my hand on it, then holding it while I made hand movements towards the dummy or touched it lightly. Once I clicked, he'd always drop the dummy, which was part of the plan (click ends the behaviour). I then moved on to getting him not to drop it on the floor but to give it back to me by putting it in my hand. Pretty quickly he worked out that he had to get it into my hand, not let it fall to the floor. All this is described in Part 4 of those articles. Once I had him pushing the dummy into my hand I then started getting him to collect the dummy off the floor and give it to me. Then I started tossing it a little way, then further etc. Once he's brought the dummy back he has to sit and wait with it till I ask for it. I stand with my hands by my sides until I want the dummy. His cue for pushing it into my hand is my hand coming out to receive the dummy. To do this he has to sit close enough to me so that I can reach without bending too much and he can reach my hand without moving from a sit. Starting with the 'take it from my hand' method helps to encourage this also because you can start the whole process with the dog sitting close in front of you as they take and give. They learn a good position fro the start. Not everyone will care about that though....I do because we do retrieves for obedience, not gundog work, and you lose points if your dog is not presenting the dummy from a close sit. [/quote]
Re: The trouble with fetch.... Hi Lisa, no matter what I do, I can't get to your vid via that link - do try to repost, I got loads of help (and I was really rubbish).
Re: The trouble with fetch.... I would get rid of the ball and invest in an Avery hexa bumper. Most dogs will chomp on a ball such as a tennis ball because they like the feeling of it being squished and then springing back inside their mouths. A hexa bumper will do away with that problem and as a handler it is much easier to take delivery of a dummy than a ball. I'm using one of those in the place board videos.
Re: The trouble with fetch.... Yes, I use one of these now on Heidrun's recommendation. Definitely easier to teach everything with a long thing, not a round thing.
Re: The trouble with fetch.... I went to Lisa's Flickr account (following previous pics she's posted) and found a vid called 'Fetch???' So I think that's the right one and have added it to her post..
Re: The trouble with fetch.... ok! Seen it now. Yes, definitely move to a dummy or at least not a squishy ball. I think you need to break this down into much, much smaller steps. If he is fine with picking things up, you could start where I did - getting him to hold something in his mouth, without chomping, then giving it back to you. So hold out the dummy, and as soon as he grasps it, C&T. Do a few sessions. Then, get him to hold the dummy (just wait a split second so he is holding it), put you hand back on it, and C&T. Work up to a couple of seconds hold with no chomping. Add the cue "fetch" when he grasps the dummy, "give" when he drops the dummy. Then try with placing the dummy at your feet..."fetch"...hand on the dummy and "give" Tiny, tiny, steps before you throw it.
Re: The trouble with fetch.... I am having the same difficulty as Lisa except I am not throwing the ball just placing it on the floor and only C&T for a delivery to hand, but he is still chewing the ball sometimes. Would I be better of using a dummy as catching the ball successfully is a bit hit and miss and not always Charlie's fault? :
