Re: The trouble with fetch.... Sorry about the video link, not sure what happened there. Glad you could see it, anyways. I was thinking about the ball vs dummy, had kinda come to the conclusion in my own mind about getting a dummy, or at least, a dummy-shaped thing, to try. I can get something like that at the local pet store. The ball has too much rolling and bouncing (and squishing :) for it to work at the moment. I will try with starting from basics and see how it goes. I have found, however, if I start too basic, the whole C & T thing doesn't seem to work. Like, for example, I would hold out the dummy but he would just stare at it, or lie down, or just walk away. I seem to remember that way back when I tried something like that (with his rope toy), but basically I could never get him to take it in his mouth, even with the C&T. Anyhow, that's neither here nor there. Might be different now. I'll get a "dummy" and video what happens!
Re: The trouble with fetch.... I think the first few steps, getting the hold right, are very boring and tedious. They take a long time. But the chomping really does seem to be getting in the way of Simba giving you the ball. Maybe just switching to a dummy will see a big improvement and you won't have to go back too far. In the end, I did the "walking hold" but it's maybe not for Simba if his "fetch" drive isn't high (although he seems to run after his ball well enough, it's just the delivery that needs work). There is a post about it here: http://totallygundogs.com/the-walking-hold-a-gundog-delivery-exercise/ But note the warning - it's not suitable for all dogs.
Re: The trouble with fetch.... [quote author=JulieT link=topic=6163.msg82705#msg82705 date=1401257652] I think the first few steps, getting the hold right, are very boring and tedious. They take a long time. [/quote] Lisa I found this,Dexter would just get fed up and wander off,even with hot roast chicken and then I felt like I was killing any interest with tedium,so I stopped formal training this.We just went out in different locations and chucked a variety of balls,frisbees,toys to try and generate some interest and I was lucky because I got a bit.....going off the point sorry.My point is this....when I was sat laid up with my torn ankle the other week I got the small pet shop canvass dummy down that I'd been using and low and behold he picks it right up and puts it in my hand......so it's taking effect even when you don't think it is and I would say persevere for sure.Try Rachael's way and a change from the ball to a dummy or even something else will make a whole fresh excercise out of it. Good luck,keep us posted x
Re: The trouble with fetch.... Well, got my new "dummy" (you guys will laugh when you see it, but hey, I have limited options here!). Ran into the same trouble. I sit down, hold out dummy, he tries to lick my hand. Take dummy away. Hold it out, he tries to lick my hand. Go wash hands. I come back. Hold out dummy. He looks at me, like, "so?" Try a couple more times, a couple of tiny sniffs here and there at the dummy, rewarded with a C & T, thinking, hey! We are getting somewhere. Hold out dummy, he looks at me, I look at him. He tries the "shake paw" , nope, not that, buddy. I hold out dummy, he looks away. I do a quick "find it" game with the treats. Come back, present dummy, he turns his head, I try it again, he lies down. I give up. Sigh. This is exactly what happened las time! How can I reward him if he won't even sniff the blasted thing???
Re: The trouble with fetch.... Hmmm...maybe you are in for a long set of shaping sessions. I don't know whether this is necessary or in line with what you need to achieve. It would be in line with what I wanted - I would want to train a retrieve without having the dog needing to see a moving object (I don't have to train that bit, luckily for me). What do you want from Simba in terms of fetch/retrieving?
Re: The trouble with fetch.... My end goal is to have him eagerly focussed on the object, be it ball or dummy, so that while we are out on walks off lead he will be more interested in staying close to me and getting a chance to fetch the object than he will at haring off after any scent that might catch his attention. I dunno. I really hate to compare Simba all the time with my previous dogs, which were Border Collies, but as they are the only experience with dogs I've had, it's all I've got. I never had to worry about them running off while we were out for off lead walks, they were obsessed with catching the frisbee or stick or whatever. We would walk, I would throw frisbee, they would catch, bring it back, repeat. With some side sniffs here and there, of course. Perhaps this is too much of a lofty goal. But I still would like, at the very least, to be able to play fetch with the dog in the back yard, in order to help give him some exercise, otherwise the only exercise he gets is a trot around the yard a few times a day, on lead walks, some visits to the dog park which may/may not result in a good running/playing session, and the occasional mad play time with the neighbour's kids who love to come over and "play" with him. But first he at least has to want to touch the dummy, right?? Sigh. It's discouraging....
Re: The trouble with fetch.... Are there any toys he is crazy about, Lisa? It doesn't have to be a dummy...
Re: The trouble with fetch.... Border Collies are hard wired to obsessively chase stuff and to herd you. Half-Newfies, not so much Simba's retrieve looked good to me - he just didn't want to stop chewing the ball. But he brought it back. Do you need a delivery to handmade or just for him to spit out the object? What about a Safestix? Anywhere you can take him swimming?
Re: The trouble with fetch.... Lisa, I wonder if the Newfoundland in Simba is more dominant than the Labrador and that might have something to do with his lack of interest in fetch :-\ Do Newfis like to retrieve? Just a thought ??? I do sympathise x
Re: The trouble with fetch.... And I meant 'delivery to hand' not 'delivery to handmade'. Although perhaps handicrafts would interest Simba? I recollect that he has shown a fondness for your knitting in the past, Lisa...
Re: The trouble with fetch.... Well...Charlie is the 4th dog in my life - only the other three were under the supervision of my mum. ;D But of my mum's dogs - the German Shepherd and the Rough Collie were really good off lead, and with fetch. The working line lab was a nutty absconder with no interest whatsoever in fetch...so I wouldn't let Simba's Newfie blood put you off (with the caveat I know nothing whatsoever about Newfies). I agree with Rachael - his fetch looked ok. In a boring environment, with an object that hadn't been built up into anything special, he looked keen enough. He jut didn't look like he knew "the rules" of the game in terms of handing it over. I'd be tempted to slog through the boring stuff and do it by the book, I reckon it'd be worth it. It might be a month or so of quite tedious work though...but once you both have a shared view of the rules, you might be on a roll.
Re: The trouble with fetch.... We will keep at it, but have to call a temporary halt to training...no food for 36 hours....ACK....
Re: The trouble with fetch.... From watching your video, Lisa, I am not totally clear what it is you want Simba to do. Do you want him to drop the ball or do you want him to give the ball to you? If you want him to give the ball to you then I would be a lot more pro-active in taking it from him rather than waiting for him to drop it into your hand. I tend to use both my hands when I take delivery of a ball. One hand either side of the dog's mouth I then gently roll the ball from behind the canine teeth. He is actually very interested in retrieving by the looks of it, he is just not sure what it is you want him to do with the ball once he has brought it back to you. Time to help him out a bit. ;D
Re: The trouble with fetch.... Yes, I have done that in the past, Heidrun. I guess my concern has been two fold with the taking it from his mouth scenario: 1) we have had issues with resource guarding in the past, have had to work very hard to overcome his desire to clamp down on things once he has them. So I would prefer him to give it voluntarily 2) he gets such joy from the "chase me" game, so if he thinks that I will come and get it from him rather than him coming to me and giving it, the whole exercise is useless. I dunno. I'm willing to "take" the ball from him, I was trying to have him drop it for me, once he started chomping, though, I did resort to a "give" command once or twice, not sure if you could hear that with all the other stuff in the background. : Not surprised you were having a hard time understanding the video, Heidrun, I'm definitely the NON-expert dog trainer of the bunch...muddling around, as usual... :
Re: The trouble with fetch.... Lisa I'm a great big non expert too!dont be disheartened.....us non experts are lucky to have the experts to help us out and all the other great input from experiences people have had.If you are training this,it will be slow.....that was something I'd didn't realise ,then I get worried we are too slow so I'm not doing it right,but it will go on the right direction if you take it step by step....I feel your pain,I would love to have one of those labs in the park that does the Merry Hoppy Paw Dance when he sees a tennis ball.......I haven't and I don't think I ever will but I've got a dog now that will retreive a bit as part of his walk ??? so it occupies a bit of the 'self employment 'time : and I've got that through Pippas trained retreive and advice from the Forum. My friends lab is related to Dexter,he has ripped claws out of his paws running to get to the ball,she throws it the whole of our walk with the ball thrower and her lab will retreive it EVERY time ,exactly how you describe your walks with your previous dogs.Dex runs after Barnie who is running after his ball so we are all winners on the excercise front but I'd prefer Dexter to do it for the love of the ball for sure :-[
Re: The trouble with fetch.... [quote author=Dexter link=topic=6163.msg82974#msg82974 date=1401334972] ....,I would love to have one of those labs in the park that does the Merry Hoppy Paw Dance ..... [/quote] ;D ;D lovely phrase - knew exactly what you meant! Gosh, retrieving's complex, isn't it? I agree that it looks like you've got loads of potential there with Simba, but Julie's point about having a 'shared view of the rules' is important. My dog started off with a good natural retrieve and delivery as a tiny pup, which then degenerated in teenage years to sloppy delivery, either hanging-on, playing keep-away or dropping on the floor (anything for a reaction) until I went back to basics and kind of clicker-trained the delivery (same method, verbal marker instead of clicker as I hadn't yet become a convert!). I couldn't be happier with her retrieve and delivery now, and she's started to retrieve just for the love of it. BUT to start with in the clicker-training process she was purely motivated by the food reward- completely indifferent to the dummy. I used to save scraps of the Sunday roast for this purpose, so she would associate the dummy with something extra special, that never appeared at any other time. I think once Simba realises a 'hold' and 'give' results in good things you'll be on the home run. If you put him in a sit in front of you and just move the object towards his mouth and keep on going, will he open his mouth to accept it? I think that's what I did, as holding out the object and just waiting for interest simply wasn't going to happen. Then once the penny dropped and the dog realised that what was needed, THEN I went for holding the object a bit in front, on the floor etc. By the way- we saw a demo of Newfies retrieving PEOPLE at a show on Monday- it was awesome, and my husband is now mounting a 'need a Newfie' campaign!!
Re: The trouble with fetch.... [quote author=Oberon link=topic=6163.msg83001#msg83001 date=1401349374] People in the water? [/quote] Yes, absolutely! It was the Newfoundland Water Rescue Society and they meet and practice water rescues, and do demos etc (not sure if they actually work as 'lifeguards'!) They had people in wetsuits, and took them out to the middle of the lake in a dingy and they 'fell' overboard and then they'd send a dog in to bring them back. The dogs would also pull the boat back. Incredible!! That is, of course, the Newfie working heritage, hence the superb coat and love of water!
