Re: Thin side of average Poor Charlie - this sounds so difficult for you and him to manage. I must say, given how active he is, it sounds a shame that he is on such slim pickings, even given the chocolate genes he has. I would have thought the more active he is, the more calories he would need :-\ I know you are doing your best for him though. Lilly gets just 100-110g twice a day which OH thinks is a paltry amount so supplements it with gravy bones : Just wanted to add that Lilly LOVES carrots and turnip (swede for you guys I think) as well as Melon - she adores melon - and as its mostly water might be handy as another tasty but low calorie treat, although a bit less portable than the carrot and swede perhaps. Not so keen on green beans (unless they are frozen) but she will also steal broccoli stalks and cauliflower stalks out the rabbit hutch given half a chance. Maybe not quite so delectable as rasps and strawbs, but maybe also worth trying?? I wonder whether you have considered Burns Weight Control as the packaging says from 9 months. I know a lot of other use Burns; though we don't ourselves. x
Re: Thin side of average Thanks all, I'll get stocked up on suitable veggies and fruit. I'll give melon a try - he seems to like fruit more than veggies. I will talk to OH about feeding raw. I'll try Heidrun's earlier tip of tiny bits of cheese in a tube for walk treats too.
Re: Thin side of average [quote author=JulieT link=topic=3819.msg43586#msg43586 date=1388414097] It's royal Canin lab junior, it says to feed until 15 months. The daily amounts are 257 - 415g for adult weight of 25 - 40kg. I reckon Charlie will be about 32 - 35 kgs when grown, so that would be 360g of food, and Charlie is on 175g, just under half the guideline. I've heard before about swapping to adult food earlier, before the manufacturers recommend it - I'm a bit wary of this though. Not that I have a huge confidence in the food manufacturers, but does anyone know of studies or references that give some evidence this is a good thing to do? [/quote] Odin is on royal canin maxi since he was 6 or 7 month. We switched from royal canin maxi junior at the same time as our breeder did with odins littermate she kept. Never had any problems after switching that early. Problem with puppy foodis that it's very high in calories i believe.
Re: Thin side of average I can't link you to anything or recommend any specific reading but whilst researching the best age for neutering I came across a lot of research that suggested feeding adult food to a puppy of large breed (ie. Labradors) can actually be more beneficial than using puppy food. Puppy food has higher protein levels (especially the stuff designed for large breed dogs) which accelerates growth rapidly and had been linked to joint disorders and injuries (eg. Early onset of symptoms from hip dysplasia and cruciate damage). So feeding an adult food which is lower in protein is actually better than a puppy food. I wouldnt specifically recommend never using a puppy food but perhaps consider switching to an adult food sooner than manufacturers recommend. I have switched Penny onto adult food, although at 11 months she's pretty much done growing anyway, when I initially thought I would do it at 18 months. The research convinced me - there was a lot of scientific data to back it up. With the lower protein levels found in adult food you should find it easier to keep the weight off/lose the weight whilst still having an adequate amount of biscuit allowance for treats and to not let your pup feel hungry. Working in rescue kennels one thing we specifically used puppy food for (aside from the little pups!) was for underweight dogs to help them put on weight as it has extra nutrients.
Re: Thin side of average [quote author=Penny+Me link=topic=3819.msg43638#msg43638 date=1388431310] I can't link you to anything or recommend any specific reading but whilst researching the best age for neutering I came across a lot of research that suggested feeding adult food to a puppy of large breed (ie. Labradors) can actually be more beneficial than using puppy food. Puppy food has higher protein levels (especially the stuff designed for large breed dogs) which accelerates growth rapidly and had been linked to joint disorders and injuries (eg. Early onset of symptoms from hip dysplasia and cruciate damage). So feeding an adult food which is lower in protein is actually better than a puppy food. [/quote] I have previously searched, and never found a study that has linked high protein with any problems in joint development in puppies - even the really, really high amounts of protein found in raw diets (usually much higher than even high protein kibble diets). If you could post links to research that would be good. A high calorie diet generally seems to be the problem. Having discussed Charlie's current cruciate damage with several orthopaedic specialists recently, not one of them thought it was likely to be related to diet, or a high protein commercial kibble diet was harmful for puppy development. Although one did say "well, don't go feeding only roast chicken or anything like that". I'd be really interested in reliable research. I've got to email my questions to the orthopaedic surgeon tonight, I'm going to ask him about the high protein / puppy food thing and what to do for the best. He seems a good person to ask.
Re: Thin side of average Julie, on Vet advice , I also put Sam onto adult kibble at around six months of age as it promotes a slower growth ( I was told )at a steadier pace too , he is in fine condition so its not a move I have ever regretted , to each his own I guess as it can be a minefield .
Re: Thin side of average I can't for the life of me find the stuff I was reading, but it was in my search for advice for or against early neutering. Perhaps it's best to consult with your vet if you have any questions, as thy are meant to be the experts lol! Part of the reason I switched Penny to adult food earlier than I would have liked is the fact that I am worried about hip dysplasia, and the fact that she is showing some signs of joint stiffness. If slowing the growth will help reduce the onset of symptoms and changing to adult food will do that then I'm all for it! I would have thought that as long as they're over the age of 6-8 months they're not going to be disadvantaged by not having the extra nutrients that puppy food provides - as long as you're still feeding a decent complete food. Penny is particularly small for a lab, always has been as her parents weren't huge so I'm pretty sure she's done all her growing anyway!
Re: Thin side of average [quote author=kateincornwall link=topic=3819.msg43651#msg43651 date=1388434113] Julie, on Vet advice , I also put Sam onto adult kibble at around six months of age as it promotes a slower growth ( I was told )at a steadier pace too , he is in fine condition so its not a move I have ever regretted , to each his own I guess as it can be a minefield . [/quote] [quote author=kateincornwall link=topic=3819.msg43651#msg43651 date=1388434113] Julie, on Vet advice , I also put Sam onto adult kibble at around six months of age as it promotes a slower growth ( I was told )at a steadier pace too , he is in fine condition so its not a move I have ever regretted , to each his own I guess as it can be a minefield . [/quote] Of course, it's always our own decisions, no-one would have it any other way. I've talked at some length to the truly wonderful David Ellis about Charlie's diet, if that's the same vet who recommended Sam's change of food - he thought the high protein puppy diet Charlie is on is fine (but he also sells it) to 15 months. If I can establish that it really would be better to switch to an adult food, I would, without any hesitation. But if we can make our decisions based on research that must be good. Let alone important to know all these food manufacturers are harming puppies with their feeding recommendations, which would be outrageous.
Re: Thin side of average I don't think that the puppy food is just a marketing ploy.... Animals do have different nutritional needs at different ages. But I don't think that you can go wrong either way. I wouldn't worry too much Julie. I myself feed raw, but, as you say, the downside of a raw diet is that you don't have the kibble ration for treats. For that reason alone I'd stick to the kibble. Quantities on kibble packaging are way too high, in my view (formed back when i used to feed it). Even the recommendations on special Labrador food. I never took any notice of those quantities. Had I fed to the packet guidelines I would have had a dog the size of a Blue Whale. ;D Also, some dogs are just really good doers. My previous dog would put on weight at the sight of food. So does Obi. Both of them had/have very little, quantity wise. I don't think that coat colour has anything to do with it, myself (perhaps Chocolate owners are just more generous)
Re: Thin side of average Actually, it wasnt David, but his partner Marion ( pre Claire days ) . I think that the whole food industry is confusing to put it mildly , so we all have to do what we feel best and try to make informed decisions . I havent ever discussed Sams diet with David , he just says whatever you are doing, keep doing it , so thats good enough for me . I guess I possibly break with norm and feed a mix of kibble and raw or fresh foods , but again , what works for one may not suit another .
Re: Thin side of average We actually use kibble too, as treats. So when I say 'I feed raw', I really just mean Obi's breakfast The rest is a mixture. Plus he gets human food (human grade leftovers). We don't stick to anything religiously. If your dog looks like it's in good nick then you are probably doing it right.
Re: Thin side of average Just coming in on this Julie,I haven't got anything to contribute to help.As you know Dexter is so sensitive I feed the kibble that seems to suit ( although I recently questioned a change) and steamed/roast chicken as treats.Food discussions always worry me to death as I do question would Dexter be better on raw,I would love to have the confidence to switch him but being first dog and all I would be terrified of malnourishing him.,or over/under feeding him,kibble gives me confidence ..plus I have the opposite issue to you ??? Dex drops weight quite quickly ( 2 days of rice with an upset tummy can actually give him a 'drawn' look about his face ???) and my vet,whilst never saying he is skinny ( he's not!) always says he should on put a couple of kgs, there's not many things I knew I'm right about but I'm strong on this,he's in great shape as he is.... Anyway as usual I digress,my chip in is just to say I'm sorry you have this additional worry,it's overwhelming the reading that's out there on different types of food and a lot to plough through when you have got so much else to be thinking about right now .Ive always thought that Charlie looks amazing,I've never seen a chubby pup ( or even a podgy one) the shine on his coat is absolutely gorgeous........ Further digression again......thanks for checking Charlie's gums for me, sorry I gave Helen the credit ( x Helen !) And for what it's worth I think Charlie would get a lovely treat from cantaloupe melon! Best wishes xxxx
