Today Penny actually injured another dog. I was up early and had extra time so thought it would be nice to take Penny to the big park (instead of the field where we usually walk in the mornings). First half was lovely, then as we rounded the corner we came upon an elderly man and a Yorkshire terrier. I had the sun shining in my eyes and they were in the shade so virtually invisible and I didn't see the other dog so wasn't able to call Penny back. She ran up to it and they were actually saying quite a nice hello, as I was about to call her away the little dog snapped at Penny which made Penny snap back and they got into a bit. She came away and we walked off a little way so I could get her on lead, I looked back to the man so apologise for what happened and he said his dog was bleeding. I tied Penny to the fence and went to have a look and the little dog had a puncture wound on one of its front legs. I was mortified. This has never happened before. It was such a stupid idea to take her to the park - we always walk in places and at times we know there will be low dog volume or just dogs that Penny already knows, today we broke routine and this happened. I can't beleive this. I feel so bad. When I came home to tell the OH what had happened he just said to me in a really 'I told you so' way "well what do we do now?" And I just don't know.... I'm going to email my behaviourist friend to see if he can book us in for a 1-1 session. I should have done this ages ago but I thought I could manage it. We were doing really well and improving, and now everything's ruined. I don't understand how she turned out like this, we did everything right.... She went to two lots of puppy classes, always met other dogs at the park, we walked her to the school and back a couple of times a week, she met my mums dog the day after we brought her home to give her early socialisation. How has it all gone so wrong? How did I manage to be such a screw up at raising and training my own dog? I've worked with dogs for 7 years and I thought I knew how to do it right. OH said "should we put a muzzle on her?" There's no way I'm doing that, it won't solve the problem. But I don't even know what the problem is anymore. How did I mess up this badly??
Re: Today the worst happened I'm so sorry to hear this, and so sorry to hear you are so upset. I think you do need a programme though, it's not possible to continue being so worried. And the more you keep her away from other dogs, the worse it will be. There isn't anything to be gained by beating yourself up about what you did wrong - maybe you didn't do anything wrong, maybe it was just a combination of Penny's personality and the complex interactions she had, that are so hard to figure out. Have you thought about socialisation classes for older dogs? Someone suggested this to me for Charlie when I was getting him back into contact with other dogs after 8 months of isolation. (I didn't think they were right for Charlie, and the alternative programme of finding a trainer happy to have him round her dogs has been better for us - that got us started and now we have careful play sessions out and about - I aim for 3 a week). I'll see whether I can find the link. It was a class exactly dealing with the problems that you have with Penny, people (on facebook) were talking about it like they were common classes, although I'd never heard about them before. I know you say you don't want Penny to wear a muzzle. But would that be so bad while you get the situation resolved? It's certainly better than her getting into trouble for biting another dog - and, really, the risk this does get her into serious trouble is quite high.
Re: Today the worst happened JulieT beat me to it and said what I would have said. Your dog getting into a scrap is a real worry. It makes me very wary of letting Molly off the lead, but I do know that she needs to socialise. I think it is a problem we all have. Don't beat yourself up about it. You have worked incredibly hard with Penny. If you hadn't the situation would be very much worse.
Re: Today the worst happened Found it - obviously this company might not be in the right place for you, but hopefully it might give you some ideas of what to look for. Here is the website; http://www.dogcommunication.co.uk/home.php And here are the description of the "lifeskills" classes for adolescent dogs: http://www.dogcommunication.co.uk/lifeskills.php
Re: Today the worst happened Sorry to hear you've had such a bad morning :'( How is Penny? Such a difficult situation. Hopefully your behaviourist friend will be able to help. Try not to beat yourself up about it, and I know that's difficult, but Penny will probably pick up how you are feeling and could make her a bit more defensive of you. Hope the rest of the day is better for you x
Re: Today the worst happened Sorry this has happened, I can understand why you feel so upset. As an interim measure I would consider a muzzle as it might make you more relaxed knowing that the same thing couldn't happen again.
Re: Today the worst happened Thank you all, I'm so upset about this, I can't think abou lt it without crying. I've emailed my behaviourist friend so hopefully will be seeing him in the next week or so... The sooner the better really. Julie - I will check out those links, thank you. My behaviourist does run adult dog socialisation classes and I've tried to get Penny into one before but he only runs them on a Tuesday afternoon and unfortunately I work all week. We have to have a 1-1 first to assess which class would be best suited for her, and I know in the past he has run a special Saturday class so I'm hoping he might be able to put one on for us if he feels it would be beneficial. We will probably have to have some private sessions first though. He has two 'stooge' dogs he used to help teach the classes so that's good.
Re: Today the worst happened I am so sorry that this happened. With dog-aggressive dogs, you have to be extra vigilant when they are off-leash, and you need a solid recall. I am positive that some training would help, if not to address the issue per-se, then at least to have the dog under control at all times, even when off-leash.
Re: Today the worst happened Like everyone else says don't beat yourself up, you are doing everything you can, it just happens. We have met Penny and thought she was a fantastic dog! She played so well with the other labs, and I remember thinking what a nice nature she had I have a good friend who is a highly qualified animal behaviourist - VeryPets in Bristol, Katie is lovely, so caring, understanding non judgemental and easy to talk to. You would get on really well with her Have a look at her website, she also has a facebook page, and if you want to organise a little session I can bring Benson along and make it a bit of fun..we can use the farm here if you wanted so no worries about other dogs and plenty of space. If it any consolation we have a bit off an incident yesterday, lots of triggers in one go, and Benson was called a monster, and I was accused of lying when I said sorry but he is still a pup and in training, I was lucky that there was a couple nearby who saw the whole thing and came over and gave Benson loads of fuss, and me a hug afterwards.
Re: Today the worst happened Please don't beat yourself up, these things happen, dogs are dogs, not humans in fur coats. The Yorkie went for your dog first, what do you expect Penny to do, just sit there and accept it? If I had been the owner of the Yorkie, I would have been the one feeling bad. You can pay for the Yorkie to be treated and give your heartfelt apologies. Worst things are happening in the world, put it in perspective Some further training classes or some one to ones will make you feel better, but remember dogs are dogs.
Re: Today the worst happened Nothing to add from me except sympathy, but Pongo wants me to tell you that he thinks Penny is a beautiful girl who played very nicely with him even when he was being quite bouncy, and he is Quite Sure that the Yorkie must have said something Very Rude to her. If Pongo was as well-behaved as Penny I would be delighted. Hugs to both of you. Rosie
Re: Today the worst happened So sorry you had a distressing experience. Don't despair. You've done all the right things in raising Penny. While it's not great that blood was drawn, these things do happen. The Yorkie responded badly to a polite greeting and an argument ensued. It's not the end of the world, even though it was rightly an awful shock. Do persue the 'professional help' options as they will make both Penny and you feel more confident. Big hugs.
Re: Today the worst happened I have zero experience in this, and don't know all of Pennys history, but in general i'm curious regarding dog behaviour and don't want to turn your concerns into a behavioural discussion but why is Penny seen as being 'aggressive' in this scenario? is it because the dog was smaller or purely because blood was drawn? It sounds from your explanation that the Yorkie was the instigator not Penny and she was only reacting to what happened. Some dogs will react the way Penny did and some will react the way mine does and run away, is that not just natural instinct? the same way some humans will react to being threatened by running, some by retaliation. Penny sounds like a lovely dog from what others have written so I hope you both bounce back quickly from this mornings incident and get back to nice peaceful walks.
Re: Today the worst happened Can't add to the excellent advice so just a post to add my virtual hug and support. Good luck with the behaviourist
Re: Today the worst happened Ah Lauren I would be out of my depth here to give you anything practical to help but just wanted you to know I have read your post and can tell now shaken up,and upset you are.Dont blame yourself or think you've done something wrong,you've put much time,thought and care into Penny,you've done your very best and sometimes situations just happen. Big hug Angela x
Re: Today the worst happened [quote author=skooch link=topic=7136.msg98018#msg98018 date=1406626047] in general i'm curious regarding dog behaviour and don't want to turn your concerns into a behavioural discussion but why is Penny seen as being 'aggressive' in this scenario? is it because the dog was smaller or purely because blood was drawn? [/quote] This is an interesting question to discuss - if Lauren doesn't mind? We can split into another thread I suppose. I have some sympathy with smaller dogs that snap at much larger dogs (I still don't like it, and generally avoid them, preferring Charlie to interact with larger dogs). I think 30kg (in Charlie's case) of happy labrador approaching a small terrier is a situation to be cautious about. I want Charlie to approach slowly, to be aware of the signals from the other dog, and yes, certainly to back off and get out of the dog's space at a warning air snap. I don't say this in a smug "my dog is perfect" way I'm getting a lot of help from a trainer in achieving this (which I once had, but not so certainly these days as Charlie's enthusiasm is somewhat overwhelming right now). It's true that this might not have been the situation with Penny and the dog though.
Re: Today the worst happened Big hug. Please don't get too upset, Penny didn't instigate the problem, although often larger dogs will be more tolerant of smaller dogs than she was in this situation. It's not as though she went bounding up to another dog and bit it for no reason and without warning… And obviously she does often get on well with other dogs, as others on here have just confirmed. As Julie says, maybe Penny is not yet reading the signals from other dogs properly, and as you have already said, perhaps adult socialization classes would be of help.
Re: Today the worst happened [quote author=skooch link=topic=7136.msg98018#msg98018 date=1406626047] I have zero experience in this, and don't know all of Pennys history, but in general i'm curious regarding dog behaviour and don't want to turn your concerns into a behavioural discussion but why is Penny seen as being 'aggressive' in this scenario? is it because the dog was smaller or purely because blood was drawn? It sounds from your explanation that the Yorkie was the instigator not Penny and she was only reacting to what happened. Some dogs will react the way Penny did and some will react the way mine does and run away, is that not just natural instinct? the same way some humans will react to being threatened by running, some by retaliation. Penny sounds like a lovely dog from what others have written so I hope you both bounce back quickly from this mornings incident and get back to nice peaceful walks. [/quote] Hi skooch, thank you, you've explained it well although I will admit that Penny does have a tendency to over react in some situations - in this one the other dog started at and unfortunately it escalated. I wouldn't want Penny to just roll over and take it when a dog has a pop at her, but at the same time some of her behaviour is inappropriate. I think only one person here has labelled Penny as aggressive and to be honest I take offence to that. [quote author=Berna link=topic=7136.msg98006#msg98006 date=1406622942] I am so sorry that this happened. With dog-aggressive dogs, you have to be extra vigilant when they are off-leash, and you need a solid recall. I am positive that some training would help, if not to address the issue per-se, then at least to have the dog under control at all times, even when off-leash. [/quote] Penny is not dog aggressive, let me make that perfectly clear. I have worked for seven years with rescue dogs who are dog aggressive, who can't even see another dog at a distance without going into a frenzy, and beleive me, Penny is not this. She did not attack the other dog unproved or for no reason. The other dog snapped at her first and continued the assault until Penny had no choice but to react defensively. In the commotion somehow she caught the other dog with her teeth. What she is, however, is under socialised, anxious and reactive. She needs short, positive interactions with other dogs hence one of the reasons I did not recall her immediately away from the other dog. I do not exaggerate when I say that Penny has a 100% perfect recall away from anything, even mid chase or food. It was me who failed to recall her in time in this situation as I was blinded by the sun. I am certain that recall is not what we need to work on, but I suppose we will see what the behaviourist says.
Re: Today the worst happened Lauren, so sorry you have had this awful situation this morning, just wanted to send my virtual hug to you.
Re: Today the worst happened Penny do you remember when I was having a worry that Dexter was aggressive because of the lunging to other dogs and barking back if a dog started at him?My conclusion through reading and advice on here was that basically he just doesn't have great doggie manners and Id gone out of my way to expose him to as many dogs as I possibly could so I felt a bit down about how that happened.He doesn't read signals well and he gets his own mixed up ie ,when,he sees another dog will lie down flat but then charge full pelt head on to them wanting play ??? He got into trouble twice ,I wouldn't call it a scrap,but there was a lot of noise and it was enough to frighten me and him I think!I now don't allow any interaction with unknown dogs on lead and I am very cautious introducing him to new dogs off lead,but that doesn't cover every scenario,like the one you had today I couldn't find anywhere to read that tells you as a human how to teach your dog good manners.Dexter doing a morning in daycare every week has made the world of difference.The owner said it to me our last session before I went away.....he is still a little nervous when he first goes in,I get him there early so other dogs come into the room,he doesn't like to walk into a full group and them all run up to him...I'm waffling a bit,sorry, whilst trying to help in my own way,what I'm saying is as a human I couldn't help Dexter learn his manners and to interpret signals but I could put him in a place where other dogs could do that and it's helped a lot....he still,has his moments but he's a lot more polite ,maybe something similar could help Penny?you are going to have the benefit of some professional advice by the,sounds of it though x
