Just another to add to the rather long list of Charlie problems. The recall in the garden is failing. Just taken him out blew my whistle he looked at me and proceeded to bomb around the garden and not interested in the chicken in my hand. Infact I have had enough and have left him out there, unable to cope any more. I truly believe that he can't be trained as outside his own interests are far more interesting than anything else. Maybe we are just not doing him any favours or ourselves. In tears Helen
Re: Total Recall is FAILING How old is Charlie? When Lady was very much a puppy she was very much like that and I think she also had extra zip because she's 100% working stock. I'm trying to recall what she was like but she certainly used to tear around and I had to let her get rid of the head of steam before doing anythingwith her. She's 3 now and much calmer and I find she is much more biddable and pays attention. It was a gradual transition. In the early days I had to really work very hard on getting her attention. For example I had to praise her every time she looked at me, especially using a single pip on the whistle meaning "look at me". This was to get her to start to take hand signals and a "back" command when retrieving. Don't give up. You will get there in the end.
Re: Total Recall is FAILING Hi David, Charlie will be 2 on the 1/12/12. The problem with Charlie is that all he wants to do is bomb around, even if I allow him that I can't get his attention to do any training at all, his eye is always on the trees and the horizon. I think the damage was done before he even entered our lives. I praise and treat every little thing he does then he's off, not a moment to be wasted as far as he's concerned. I worry that after months of no off lead when the day does finally arrive he will be off like a greyhound out of a trap and all that hard work will have been for nothing. I am trying so hard not to give up but deep down I don't think he can be trained I feel he will always take off no matter what kind of jackpot treat is on offer. His self rewarding is so imbeded now I think it would take years not months of training. Thank you for your thoughts. Helen
Re: Total Recall is FAILING Hi Helen, sorry you are so fed up. But one recall error is not failure, it just tells you that you have moved on a bit too quick that day. These are the most important things to bear in mind when you move on to a more difficult recall. 1. You must have faded out the rewards at the previous stage (he should be reliable with only an occasional treat) 2. The dog must be hungry 3. The reward must be very high value Everyone will experience a failed recall at some point. And when you do, you need to go back to the previous stage for a few days and consolidate there with high value rewards, and then fade them out again before moving on. As long as you don't give Charlie opportunity to make the same mistake repeatedly, then you can get back on course Use your long line to stop the dog from running around when he ignores the whistle and go through the routine of encouraging him towards you after you have given the signal. Don't put yourself in a situation where you can fail again for a while. And keep the chicken out of sight. It is a reward and not a bribe. The point of the treats is not to encourage the dog to stay with you. They are used as a means to develop a trained or automatic response in the dog. And with dogs like Charlie, this can be a very long process indeed. For some people and some dogs the effort may just be too much and I do appreciate how despondent you must feel. It isn't your fault, or Charlie's. If there is anywhere you think of where you can safely let him off to run to his hearts content, then you may be able to manage him without a recall command. But if there is no such place near to you, then you don't have much choice but to continue to try and train him. Dogs like Charlie require a huge amount of time and energy, so it is not surprising that you feel fed up. A really good one-to-one trainer would give you a lot of support and encouragement... Pippa
Re: Total Recall is FAILING Thanks Pippa, I followed all of your 3 points without any issues. I have been doing Recall in the Garden since 12/11 with chicken and gradually reduced the rewards from 16/11 with chicken is that wrong? I have kept him on a long line which worked for a short while but now he takes off and reaches the end at such high speed almost taking me with him. There is no where that I can let him have a good run as all paddocks have an escape route, so just our garden and it's not enough for his energy levels. I don't have any more time for a one-to-one trainer. His recall was iffy yesterday and I did manage to get him over with an excited call but only just, but today he wasn't having any of that running around in and out of trees like crazy. You mention the trained automatic response which is exactly what he has been doing but not in the last 2 days. I don't think anyone quite understands what we are faced with here. Have 0 motivation now and David is running out of it too. Thanks Helen :'(
Re: Total Recall is FAILING Hi Helen, is Farley Mount too far away from you? The monument there is surrounded by sheep fence, we used it a lot to let Riley have worry-free off lead time. Good luck! Barbara
Garden recall Hi Helen, hang on in there! You can get past this. But do avoid blowing the new recall again until you have decided on a plan of action. You don't want to 'poison' your new command. Are you waiting until Charlie is focused on you, or at least not focused on anything else before you blow the whistle in the garden? He needs to be relaxed and sniffing about, not tearing around like a mad thing. At this very early stage in training (I assume you are doing the one man outdoor recall) you would only use the recall when you have a good chance of success. If your garden is quite large and interesting, it may be too distracting an environment for him at this point. If he is distracted by trees, leaves, whatever, then what you are doing (or trying to do) is actually proofing and he isn't ready for that yet. You need to get his attention back on to you. Did Charlie find the 'recall from food' exercise very easy? Are there any toys or games he likes to play with? Does he like to chase a ball? I am looking for alternative rewards here. Pippa
Re: Total Recall is FAILING Hi Pippa, yes I am doing the one man outdoor exercise. When I first started this exercise on the training line he was fine and I waited until he was sniffing around before blowing the whistle with complete success, now he won't do that he just tears off like a mad thing on the training line!. He found the recall from food relatively easy with only a couple of half hearted recalls and I did not move on until he had nailed it. He loves his squeaky ball and that's the only way I can get him in from the garden. He does play for a very limited period with Hattie and when I try to play he runs off with the ball and off he goes. His attention span is soooo very limited it proves extremely difficult to engage him. Our garden is quite large with lots of trees etc. and he just tears around and has hurt himself several times crashing into branches, concrete fence posts. He is so crazy he has gauged flesh from his legs etc. in the process. and it scares me so much. Helen
Re: Total Recall is FAILING Thanks Barbara it's not too far from us but terrified that he would find a way out or jump the fencing as he is a very tall boy standing 27" ish from shoulder to floor. Helen
Re: Total Recall is FAILING Hi Helen, you really need to get Charlie's attention before blowing the whistle, so if he tears around you'll need to restrain yourself from whistling until you can get his attention back. The squeaky ball sounds good. Have you got two? If you can get another one that he likes you can get him engaged in a game where he brings one back in exchange for chasing the other one. Pippa
Re: Total Recall is FAILING Ok I can buy another ball. Does that mean I don't continue with the recall for now or wait until he has the ball then whistle and reward with chicken? sorry feeling muddled, don't know about Charlie having a 3 second memory ... ! Just to say that I haven't been blowing the whistle whilst he is charging round. Blew it this morning and he ran past me ignoring me. thanks Helen
Re: Total Recall is FAILING Helen, I just think that engaging Charlie in a ball game might get his attention focused on you long enough for you to recall him. If he only has one ball, you might find he won't recall with the ball in his mouth because he doesn't want you to have it. This can be overcome (clicker retrieve) but I don't want to burden you with a whole new training regime at this point! If you have two balls, then you have another ball to attract his attention with when he has dashed off with the first one, and to throw for him after he has come back to you, as a reward. That might be an even better reward for Charlie, than food. You may have to experiment a bit. But to start with, do whatever it takes to get him running towards you, then only use the recall whistle as he approaches you. You are trying to build a new pattern of behaviour in his brain. (He does have one, truly!) A pattern that says 'Helen is fun' 'running to Helen is fun' 'whistle equals running to Helen (for more fun)' Hope that makes sense
Re: Total Recall is FAILING Oh Helen, my heart breaks for you all. :'( One question, what's his recall like in the house? Our obstinate hound decided he didn't like to come back either and we went back to basics, recall indoors only until he was totally proofed before even thinking about trying it outside. I lost count of the number of pairs of jeans that went through the wash with treats in the pocket (yuck!), I had a few with chewed out pockets where they'd been retrieved from the washbasket and rather than extract the food the dog simply ate the treats along with the pockets! We are incredibly fortunate in that directly opposite the house is a field where we could let him run until he'd burnt off all his energy and returned of his own free will (to much praise and hugs even without issuing the recall command, reinforcing the "people are good, people are nice" idea) so we didn't face your problem of lots of lead walking whilst his energy levels were very high. Is there anywhere like that you could use? horses again, an indoor horse arena would be good as they're usually secure, safe and full of fantastic smells. - One caveat, never use the same location for any attempt at training, it really, truly is a play zone, somewhere where the dog can legitimately go crackers until he falls down exhausted. Being a 10+stone hound a long line was useless (positively dangerous), so we built an outside narrow 'alleyway' one way down, one back with gates as backstops and used that for recall practice gradually introducing distractions. That could be another option. We're sending you as much strength and resilience as we can. Keep your chin up. (PS, I read your response to the trainer suggestion, I totally understand. A friend sent her rescued collie to a local trainer, only to be phoned 10 days later by the dog warden in Leeds (50 miles away) to ask if they'd lost him, he'd been found tied up to a lamp post but the chip was registered. Trainer's response when tackled about it- he ran away)
Re: Total Recall is FAILING Pippa thank you that makes perfect sense to me, will buy some extra squeaky balls and make a start tomorrow and see how we go. As far as his brain is concerned I am not sure at this moment in time if he does have one or if I have come to that! My children think I'm fun but obviously Charlie does not - the cheek!! Sorry about today I think it has been such a long and hard journey and there is still such a very long way to go we just can't see the light and the end of the tunnel, but a glimmer would help!! Thank you all so very much. Helen xxx
Re: Total Recall is FAILING Thanks Kerryn for your good wishes, His recall in the house has been excellent following Pippa's total recall. Completed all 5 exercises no issues until we started on the One Man Garden Recall. I am going to ask around our village if anyone has a totally enclosed field that we could use to let Charlie run off at least some of that energy. I truly wish there was an indoor arena as that would be perfect, but sadly only an outdoor one with just horse fencing so too much opportunity to escape and undo what I have managed to achieve. Like the idea of the recall alleyway, but feel David would have a seizure if I asked him to do any more jobs as we have been renovating our Georgian house for 19 years and it might just tip him over the edge and I don't want that as the hall & stairs is nearly done!!! Very best wishes, Helen xx
Re: Total Recall is FAILING I have to say Helen I think finding a safe place where Charlie can charge around using up his energy, and where you can maybe play a bit of ball with him and just not really attempt any training, but just have a bit of fun together, would do you both a power of good. You need to have some FUN together, not just be angry and frustrated with him. Didnt really click before that he is a Lab x GSP... wow. That's quite a combination!!! No wonder you're exhausted! GSP's are really clever dogs, but as you know they need to WORK, so I feel the key to Charlie is to let him tire himself out in a safe place, then do a bit of training, and eventually you can work out what it is he likes to do (seems like he shines at agility). You've put so much into this, I'm sure you can do it!!! We are all behind you.
Re: Total Recall is FAILING Thanks Karen, have made a few calls today to try and find a safe paddock for Charlie to run free in, so fingers crossed. I agree both breeds are clever but it seems to me Charlie has inherited the not so clever genes!!! bless him... He is doing very well at agility but I really dislike going and only obviously do it to help him. We will keep going and pray for a good outcome whenever that might be. Thank you for your support I really do appreciate and need it. Helen x
Re: Total Recall is FAILING I've got my fingers crossed you find a paddock, I'd say borrow ours but we're at the wrong end of the country. It really made a huge difference to Finn to be able to run it out of him, we tried videoing him but he was too fast and we were laughing at - sorry with, him too much. Like Karen says with a 'safe place' where you can enjoy Charlie again and he you too.
