Tough love - a meditation on dominance and dogs

Discussion in 'Behavioural science and dog training philosophy' started by JulieT, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    I'm a big fan of the work of Dr Sophia Yin, and often feel sad she is gone.

    Here is a 30 minute film which begins with Sophia Yin's journey from training dogs using punishment to the person who contributed so much. If you have a spare 30 minutes, it's well worth it.

     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2016
  2. Jen

    Jen Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    That's a coincidence Julie I was looking at Sophia Yins training videos last week and saw this. Very moving when she is talking about the boxer she had when she was young.

    Have you read her book 'How to behave so your dog Behaves' ? I'm considering buying it and just wondered if anyone had read it.
     
  3. MaccieD

    MaccieD Guest

    Although not on my required reading list for my course I have Sophia Yin lined up for some "light" reading once I've finished my first assignment.
     
  4. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    I haven't no, although just googled it and tempted to get it.
     
  5. Newbie Lab Owner

    Newbie Lab Owner Registered Users

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    I downloaded this book last week, I've just started reading it.
     
  6. Jen

    Jen Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    @Newbie Lab Owner can you let me know what you think of it Donna. I will probably get it but I'm wondering how easily the training exercises will work with two dogs.:confused: It's difficult to find training advice for more than one dog. You train separately but then bringing them together isn't always straight forward.
     
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  7. Newbie Lab Owner

    Newbie Lab Owner Registered Users

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    I've only just reached the training chapters the previous chapters are about dog-dog social skills; human-dog communication; learning to understand dog body language and which context you are looking at it in and how to observe them. Classical and operant conditioning. I now need to go back a recheck some that I highlighted as I get a bit muddled due to reading too much at once.
    To be honest I don't know about training two dogs together. I'd do one at a time in doors, then once they both have a good grasp of it in doors separately, go back to the beginning and repeat with both dogs together to help them learn that the behaviour also means that they do it separately and when together.
    If you click for one dog, you'll also be reinforcing what the other is doing, that's how I see it in my mind and you may not be fully aware of what either is doing.
    One may be doing what you're asking/looking for and the other may not, even if it's only slightly wrong, which dog gets the reward or how long do you wait whilst the other one isn't doing it before rewarding the one that is?
    In the long run, I think it will be quicker for the dogs to learn on a one on one basis, build up a behaviour separately, add the other dog as a distraction, repeat with dog 2, then join them together.
    Long winded answer :rolleyes:
     
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  8. Jen

    Jen Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Exactly Donna it gets complicated. :D The bit I find difficult with two is I can train them separately but at some point they will be together before its fully trained. For example in the book I believe, from the Amazon preview, there's an exercise for getting the dog to pay attention on walks. I could walk them both seperately until we have this trained, that's really what I should do o_O, but unfortunately it's not always practical so I need to be able to apply it to two. Thinking about it it's the same with most trained behaviours the dogs have to be together before things are fully trained. :confused:
     
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  9. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Is it possible for the dogs to learn that they only get a C&T if they are both doing the same thing at the same time? In this way, one dog carrying out a behaviour is a sort of cue for the other dog to do the same.

    So, for example, if both dogs had been heavily rewarded for looking at you separately, but when together you only mark and reward if they are both looking at you/walking at heel/whatever, would they learn that and start to co-ordinate between them?
     
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  10. charlie

    charlie Registered Users

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    This is possible, when I walk my neighbours dog and Hattie together, Hattie gets C&T for looking at me and walking to heel, the other dog very quickly caught on and does the same so it works perfectly both getting a C&T. He also quickly got to grips with Hattie's recall whistle too :)
     
  11. charlie

    charlie Registered Users

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    Watched the video, very moving to see Dr Yin so emotional over her mistakes with her own dog but how wonderful that she turned her whole training methods round and shared them with the dog world. Pretty tough listening to some of the methods used and still used today even with young puppies :(:( I wonder how many more years it will be before all trainers are positive only, if ever.
     
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  12. Newbie Lab Owner

    Newbie Lab Owner Registered Users

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    I can see you've had some good advice from other members. I haven't had experience in this and have found it difficult at times to walk Dexter so that he can have off lead time in a park/field which he needs but has to walk to before we've fully cracked the lead walk. I have been out before with other people and their dogs have responded to Dexter's recall whistle, one of the dogs the owner can never get him to recall. So yes, I think there is every possibility that one will pick up the behaviour of the other. I'll have a quick look at the chapter that you mention.
     
  13. MaccieD

    MaccieD Guest

    Not just trainers but every dog owner. I find I get so angry sometimes with peoples attitudes to training etc and also the lack of controls around dog trainers and training bodies I was looking at the Guild of Dog Trainers the other day regarding one of their members and no where does it say that they use only force free/positive reinforcement methods. They mention "humane" methods relevant to the size and breed of dog - really? Then again you pay them to become a member, no assessments only a few recommendations from satisfied customers. It is just so depressing sometimes :(
     
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  14. charlie

    charlie Registered Users

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    Your right it is every dog owner. I understand that anyone can set themselves up as a Dog Behaviourist no qualifications whatsoever required, the recommendations probably come from owners that maybe know no better. It is very sad :(
     
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  15. Newbie Lab Owner

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    I've had a quick look but it follows on from previous sessions. One thing she does mention is about the use of harnesses on big dogs increasing the pulling power of the dog (not in those exact words), she says you can speed up the process by using a regular collar, lead and patience and take him through the "Learn to Earn" exercises in Chapter 15 and "Leave it" in Chapter 16.
    I still need to read them properly myself.
     
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  16. Newbie Lab Owner

    Newbie Lab Owner Registered Users

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    The comparison she makes about the harness is that with a small dog, most people can handle the pull, with big dogs it's much more difficult due to their size and strength. I know this is true as my sister in law and her tiny dog (same age as Dexter) is nothing like as hard to handle due to the size different. Dexter could be walking better, still not perfect though, than hers but look and feel worse due to his strength and size. If that makes sense.
     
  17. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    An alternative explanation, of course, is it tends to hurt dogs more to pull in a collar. :(
     
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  18. Jen

    Jen Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    @JulieT I guess it probably is possible to reward two dogs for co-ordinating. They must do something like that when they train dogs to 'dance'. They certainly pick things up by watching each other. It's funny how quickly a bottom will hit the ground when it sees the other getting a reward. :) I've almost cured Scout of jumping up at the work top when I'm doing their food by rewarding Scott for sitting calmly. Notice I said almost cured ;)

    Thank you Donna for the info on the book. We do 'Learn to Earn' so maybe incorporating that into attention on me when walking might work. The trouble is I don't have a problem getting their attention it's keeping it especially Scott if there is something coming towards us and I don't think not giving Scout a reward until Scott has his attention on me will work. o_O
     
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  19. Jen

    Jen Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    @Newbie Lab Owner Thought you might find these interesting Donna if you haven't already seen them. Although the third link is titled Reactive dog - Moving past distractions on a walk and Dexter isn't reactive it can be useful for all dogs when training them to walk nicely on a lead.:)

    https://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/the-learn-to-earn-program/

    https://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/the-learn-to-earn-program-implementing-the-program/

    https://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/reactive-dog-moving-past-distractions/
     
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  20. Newbie Lab Owner

    Newbie Lab Owner Registered Users

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    Yes, that is so true. :(
     

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