I started training Hattie the turn whistle yesterday, so this is how I did it which I hope is correct. Hattie is a good 10 - 20 meter dog she looks back at me every 10 ish seconds so when she turned I blew a short 'pip' she did scan the environment first and came back to me quite slowly for a treat. I mixed this in with a couple of recalls which I get a much quicker return and some stop whistles so she understood the difference I hope. Is that the response I should expect from the turn whistle? Thank you xx
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ Wish I could help Helen , but I don't use a whistle, just my own mouth whistle , but I`m sure one the others will help , it certainly sounds like Hattie is doing very well indeed
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ What do you want the turn whistle to mean? It sounds like you are using it as a sort of recall (Hattie coming to you for a treat)? I'm not sure I see the point of that if Hattie already has a good recall. Do you want it to mean change direction to 180 degrees, or something else?
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ Can I ask why you use the turn whistle as your Charlie has a good recall?
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ The turn whistle and the recall are different things. A turn is used to create a pattern with the dog travelling in a zigzag while you walk forward. Unlike a recall it wouldn't stop at you but keep going crossing your path. Is that pattern what you're looking for from Hattie? I taught Riley to sweep a while ago, which is similar to a hunting dog quartering but I only used my voice and I haven't used it in a while so I'm probably not the best person to give advice. It's not clear to me what your end goal is though from your initial post
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ Thanks Barbara, there was a discussion a little while ago that a turn whistle doesn't indicate to the dog this is the end of what he is doing like a recall does, so is in some situations it's better than the recall. I was just trying it out on Hattie but it sounds tricky to me and I don't want to confuse her as she does have a pretty good recall, so that's the end of our turn whistle : I thought it would be a useful command for Charlie but it sounds rather confusing and I don't want to mess up x
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ Charlie doesn't quarter - his change direction whistle is just a 180 degree turn. It's less "punishing" than a recall, in that it is a "continuation" cue. ie "keep moving, but just the other way please". So, if Charlie is running ahead of me and swerves towards the river/chickens/another path, his change direction is used. If he is ahead of me and I want him to return (and for some reason do not want to use his recall) I will throw a ball behind me* as a reward once he has turned and obeyed his cue. He rushes past me, without stopping, to get his reward. It's very useful, but my understanding is that you should never treat it as a recall - ie expecting the dog to come into you and stop. Otherwise, you are just introducing another recall cue. Which is confusing and serves no purpose. It's not complicated. It's just a matter of working out what you want, getting that behaviour, rewarding it, and putting it on cue. * I also change direction - we both change direction.
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ So for my Charlie who doesn't retrieve how would I reward him for a change in direction? :-\
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ [quote author=charlie link=topic=8030.msg113184#msg113184 date=1411854153] So for my Charlie who doesn't retrieve how would I reward him for a change in direction? :-\ [/quote] You need to have some reward, whatever that is for your dog. I train/practise this by having 6 big treats - I prepare them and have them separate from the rest of my treats. Small cooked meatballs are good, as are mozzarella balls. Whatever your dog will go for. It's important the treats don't fall apart. I throw a treat one way and Charlie chases it. I immediately set off in the opposite direction. As soon as Charlie has the first treat, I throw the next one in front of me, ahead in the direction I'm going - Charlie turns 180 to dash for the treat. I turn again and stride quickly off - I blow my change direction whistle as Charlie turns from his treat to dash for the next one. I introduced a "click for speed" after the turn as he is galloping for the next treat. You can do the same to speed up recall but introduce a cue to stop at you - mine is a hand touch. You have to clearly distinguish the cues - recall means "stop at me" change direction just means "go the other way".
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ You can do it just by changing your direction; as you turn to go the other way, just peep peep.
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ [quote author=Stacia link=topic=8030.msg113189#msg113189 date=1411856115] You can do it just by changing your direction; as you turn to go the other way, just peep peep. [/quote] Yes, the traditional gundog trainer I had said this. It's fine if your dog is "tuned in" to you, and will change direction with you. If not, and your dog is quite happy to stay where he is and investigate the smell he is having a ball with for 5 or 10 minutes after you have blown the whistle - or even quite frankly doesn't give a fig about which direction you are heading - it's a bit more challenging. It also does nothing for speed of response.
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ [quote author=JulieT link=topic=8030.msg113185#msg113185 date=1411854671] [quote author=charlie link=topic=8030.msg113184#msg113184 date=1411854153] So for my Charlie who doesn't retrieve how would I reward him for a change in direction? :-\ [/quote] You need to have some reward, whatever that is for your dog. [/quote] And there is the difficulty, my Charlie is not food motivated either : [quote author=Stacia link=topic=8030.msg113189#msg113189 date=1411856115] You can do it just by changing your direction; as you turn to go the other way, just peep peep. Surely he would just come after us, wouldn't that just be a recall which is the mistake I made with Hattie? [/quote]
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ [quote author=charlie link=topic=8030.msg113194#msg113194 date=1411856933] [quote author=JulieT link=topic=8030.msg113185#msg113185 date=1411854671] [quote author=charlie link=topic=8030.msg113184#msg113184 date=1411854153] So for my Charlie who doesn't retrieve how would I reward him for a change in direction? :-\ [/quote] You need to have some reward, whatever that is for your dog. [/quote] And there is the difficulty, my Charlie is not food motivated either : [/quote] If you really don't have a reward, well, you are pretty stuffed trying to train with rewards then. I read an interesting article recently though - it proposed that all dogs are food motivated. If they don't eat, they die. So it's a question of how hungry the dog is...
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ [quote author=charlie link=topic=8030.msg113194#msg113194 date=1411856933] And there is the difficulty, my Charlie is not food motivated either : [/quote] He would be food motivated if you didn't feed him for 2 days
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ My trainer said something very interesting to me the other day. He said you can train a dog to do anything by depriving it of food or stimulation or affection, and then use those as rewards when the dog does what you want. But, he went on, since our dogs are practically family members, there is no way we are going to do that, so we need to find other, high value rewards. Julie's Charlie loves delicatessen foods, Poppy gets her ball as a reward. Your Charlie only really loves running - could you somehow use that as a high value reward? Train a 'go play' command, and allow him a couple of minutes of free running after he has done something good and challenging? I do think teaching Charlie to quarter would be great for him. Have you seen Paul's video of Ludo doing great long sweeping quarters across the field? He is doing loads of running, hunting for the dummy, but still under control. It might be just the thing for Charlie.
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ [quote author=charlie link=topic=8030.msg113194#msg113194 date=1411856933] Surely he would just come after us, wouldn't that just be a recall which is the mistake I made with Hattie? [/quote] Pippa posted the quartering article when you first mentioned this. You are supposed to get the dog excited and so he overshoots, and stop if he starts stopping at you or trotting along with you. http://totallygundogs.com/quartering-for-spaniels/ [quote author=Karen link=topic=8030.msg113220#msg113220 date=1411888092] Your Charlie only really loves running - could you somehow use that as a high value reward? Train a 'go play' command, and allow him a couple of minutes of free running after he has done something good and challenging? [/quote] Generally, this sounds like an excellent idea. I've never trained quartering though - Pippa's article says free running must stop while it is trained. But there are no rewards (apart from the running in the pattern - which might be enough for Helen's Charlie) used in Pippa's description of training quartering. That might effectively be what you suggest - the running being the reward. We need a spaniel person now!
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ I'm in Sussex getting ready for Spot The Spaniel at Petworth House. Will write something tomorrow.
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ Thanks everyone. Incase you haven't noticed I have real problems processing lots of information, so please stay with me and I apologise in advance for all of my questions :-[ I think maybe what I am looking for with Charlie is a directional change because a 'turn' doesn't give which way to turn the dog or does it?, so how do I do directional change in the simplest way and how do I reward it? The dog is not supposed to return to you for a treat but a ball is OK :-\ Charlie isn't big on either so I find it difficult to see how I can even begin to get started with this and not confuse him into a new recall. I really can't get my head round this, sorry I couldn't even begin to train quartering too massive for us and again he is not interested in finding a dummy/ball to retrieve : Again, thanks for all the input and look forward to any suggestions to get us started x
Re: Training Hattie the Turn Whistle :/ OK, lets try another way then, if changing your direction doesn't change his (incidentally I wouldn't whistle if he is ignoring your turn). When you are out and he turns naturally, quickly put your turn whistle in as he does it. I don't see any need to give a food or ball reward as the turn whistle doesn't mean 'come to me'. A dog should have his attention on the owner, not the other way around! I went on a training walk in a large wood yesterday, the trainer wanted to show a couple of people how the dog likes to keep in the pack. So we walked and would then suddenly turn round without a word or signal to the dogs who had all hoolied off into the far distance, within seconds they were all back and then we turned again. At one point we stopped talking to each other so the dogs had no auditory signal as to where we might be and we turned again and again they were back in no time. They didn't come as a recall as they shot on in front of us again, but when we turned. I know this isn't really a way of training the turn whistle as in quartering across you, but I use it if I think my Labs are too far in front, give the turn whistle and they turn toward me and thus do not get too far away. Edited to add - Helen, I know the latter part of my post doesn't really apply to you and Charlie as he was a serial absconder before you had him and you have been working very hard and succeeding. I just got carried away about the turn :-[ Actually one of the dogs yesterday was an absconder and the woman was very worried, but because we were in a pack of four dogs and three dogs did keep an eye on the owners the absconding one did as well. I think if you just put the turn whistle in when Charlie does it naturally it will eventually mean something to him and he will then turn automatically when he hears it, just don't make a big thing about it yet.
