Thank you for clarifying this, it makes sense. No need for me to persist with 10 second hold at all. Yes it needs to be fun for sure, it's all about her after all. Her place in my life and her space in my heart not dependent on her doing this. But if I'm honest I'm slightly perplexed about why she doesn't seem keen to return to me with whatever object, I've tried to be careful not to give negative associations when removing from her mouth.
If she's not keen to return to you with a dummy/ball or whatever you could try a training tip from Patricia McConnell which is to start running away from her as she approachesaid or as soon as she picked up and looks towards you. Enthusiasm to get to you usually increases
@selina27 I've just been reading through the clicker retrieve instructions and think I understand why it says to build up to a hold of 10 secs - the idea seems to be to get the dog used to holding the dummy, it is not just about the delivery. Though I also share the reservations of everyone above that 10 secs is a very long time if the dog is standing still with the dummy and is likely to make it quite boring. My problem with Jess is similar to yours - she doesn't seem keen to return to me with objects but has no problem with carrying the dummy. The clicker retrieve sounds so laborious though! I know I need to start working on it but feel really reluctant. I've been trying to think of ways to adapt it so that it can be fun for Jess and me, and focuses on our actual problem (the return) rather than all of the previous steps of approaching the dummy etc. I've found this works but you need the right environment - I think the gundog club calls it a retrieve tunnel. An enclosed lane so that the dog has few other options to get away with the dummy. I worked on this for a couple of days at Christmas when I was visiting my parents. My dad was a gamekeeper and has trained lots of gundogs. It was pretty amazing how quickly he got Jess running back to me with the dummy - within the first session of 10-15 minutes. As JoJo says, when Jess picked up the dummy and looked back towards me, that was my cue to turn and run slowlyish away. The idea was to get her running towards me before she had a chance to think about it. We just used a short stretch of driveway with a wall on one side and a shed on the other. It worked, but I've not found a good space to practice it since I came back home (and yes, have been a bit lazy on this point!)
When you refer to "negative associations" do you mean she wants to keep the object, or is she slightly confused, meaning she doesn't know whether she should give it to you? In either case you could try a ping pong recall game, then move on to a ping pong with 2 identical objects. They both follow similar principles. The ping ping recall game builds the excitement on the return. You start by having 8 pieces of "chunky" treats, 4 in each hand. Find a low distraction area, with very short grass. You then throw the high value treat to the side (around 15 feet or so). She runs for the treat, wait until she grabs the treat, the throw to the other side of you. Keep going, then the instant she turns after grabbing the treat you blow your recall whistle, and throw the next treat. Her return to you gets faster and faster. The second game,( I used this when Bramble understood the first game, so did this game LOTS first..) I replaced the treats with exciting squeaky tennis balls. Throw a ball 15 feet one way, when she picks up..mark...(I use an excited YESSSSS!) then throw the other ball the other way. I then added the recall whistle once we had a good rhythm. Hey presto! She grabbed the ball and ran excitedly to me.
@blackandwhitedog , thank you very much for your reply. Who knew 10 seconds could seem like eternity! Yes, it would be great to have a retrieve channel. I started the clicker retrieve inside to limit her option of running off and at her meal times, with warm sausage when I could arrange it. The first 2 steps were no problem and it was good to see her working it out, but the hold was on the verge becoming very boring as you can see from my posts. So I would say don't be put off by the laboriousness but maybe aim just for 5 second hold, say. Although the bit about getting them to put it in your hand looks daunting I must say. The day before yesterday we had a good but very brief session in the garden, we'd had a good day in general, and she quickly ran to me with the dummy for her sausage, tail wagging looking happy, so am feeling encouraged.
Many thanks Beanwood for your reply. By negative associations I mean being careful when removing objects from her mouth she wasn't supposed to have when she was tiny really. In the house. Making sure giving it up was a good thing. However, up in the woods where we often walk (privately owned) there has been a pile of bones dug up by foxes/badgers and scattered around which was problematic, but the last few times she's picked one up she' came to me and swapped it for a reward, oh aren't I the lucky one. When she was smaller and I still thought she was going to be perfect I made an issue of getting it off her and then when she was bigger she would run off . So giving it up now is quite a big deal. A few times I've given it back to her to carry home. Yes the ping pong recall -- I started doing that a few weeks ago when @snowbunny answered my query about improving recall, it's fab! We love doing it! She also suggested the puppy switch retrieve with dummys which I guess is much like your squeaky ball method. It was at that point I asked for help not running off with dummy and clicker retrieve came into our life! With all the advice/benefit of experience I've been given I feel we are beginning to pull it all together.
Hi Selina, I don't use a clicker so haven't commented on your thread before- but I have had success with holding a high value toy as a reward, which is given or thrown as a reward once the dummy is brought back to hand.
If you teach a hand touch independently of the retrieve she'll be so used to shoving her nose in your hand that hopefully she'll just keep doing that with a dummy in her mouth.
Nor do I, I use "yessss" as my marker, it's what we did at training class and it seems better to continue with it cos it works for us. I just refer to clicker retrieve so people get what I'm trying to do. To be honest Cass doesn't really rate her toys massively highly, but I'll keep your suggestion in mind, thank you. The thing she loves above all else is the armchair nearest the woodburner -- not sure how to use this as a training reward!!
A report back to say that I decided to take my own advice and find a retrieve tunnel. I've just done 15 minutes or so in the alleyway behind my house. It's a narrow strip between garden fences on one side and fencing on the other. Not very salubrious but it worked! I threw the dummy, Jess picked it up, I ran away and she came running after me and got lots of cheese. We did it quite a few times and she brought it every time (I know the advice is to ration retrieving to keep enthusiasm up but I half suspect that was one of the factors that has made her reluctant to come back to me - she thinks the game might end if she does). She did look around for an escape route at one point but then realised there was nowhere to go other than back to me. Am feeling very cheered -that's the best progress we've had on this for months. Sorry to hijack your thread @selina27 but maybe it will work for you and Cass too? I'd been trying to think of a 'nice' retrieve tunnel in a field or wood or something. I'm kicking myself that I didn't think of the spot just behind my house!
@blackandwhitedog , no problem, no hijack, lovely to read your post. Tomorrow I am looking after my daughters horse, I will try it in the alleyway between stables. Give the horses something to watch! How old is Jess?
@blackandwhitedog pleased to hear that the runaway method is working for yous but I'very never used any apparatus or tunnels etc.I just train in the garden, a local field or down a local Lane and have always found that just running away from the dog makes them keen to chase after you. If I remember correctly Patricia McConnell recommends just playing the game on walks or in the garden. The aim is for it to be fun
Oops, "tunnel" probably wasn't the best choice of word. No, no apparatus required - but for Jess it is essential that the corridor/lane is enclosed on both sides. Running away from her in a field just leads to both of us running in different directions: she runs one way to bury the dummy and I run the other trying to get her to chase me. Similarly, down a local lane or in the garden will have her escaping to the sides if she can. Her instinct to bury is really strong. You can almost see the anxiety on her face as she tries to protect her treasure. And if I give her any commands while she has something in her mouth she can't obey them - again, you can almost see the anxiety as she tries to find a spot to bury her prize and then come back to me. So for Jess, enclosed sides which block her escape routes are essential. Then it seems that when she picks the dummy up and has that initial thought - "precious treasure must bury" - if I can immediately catch her attention by running away then I can get her instinct to chase/return to me to override the instinct to bury. But only if her escape options are blocked!
The desire to bury the retrieve is very common in cockers. I have seen it in very, very young puppies and in top field trialling dogs. That's why they are often referred to as the undertakers.
@blackandwhitedog it may be worth playing the chase game but without any dummy, toy etc to get her to happily run after you being rewarded with a treat when she gets you - sort of a game of tag. Just thinking how her return can be improved as at some point your 'barrier' will have to be removed and she has more space which potential will give her the opportunity to zoom away again.
indeed! My dad has been training one of Jess's siblings who was equally reluctant to bring the dummy back but has worked through that and she is now doing quite advanced blind retrieves, directed retrieves etc. He assures me that consistent frequent sessions will pay off eventually..... Thanks for this suggestion, but if she's not carrying a dummy or ball there's no problem - she'll chase me happily and her recall generally is good. The difficulty is building that trained return response when she has a dummy in her mouth. Of course eventually I will have to remove the barriers but I'm hoping that it will work if I gradually build up from the alleyway return to my garden to a hedge-lined lane etc. But I'm certainly open to other suggestions. @heidrun or @bbrown, do you think this will work or do you think it is better to work through the full clicker retrieve?
I do believe that management of the environment is the way forward. That's where retrieving lanes come in very handy. I'm always on the look out for ready made retrieving lanes in the shape of narrow passages between buildings or fences either side of a path. I have used clicker training very successfully to fine tune the delivery but I do think what you are doing now is a step in the right direction.
I think that as Heidrun says environment management is key. If you work in open spaces, with or without clicker you may need a long line. A retrieving lane removes the need for that. You want to build a really strong habit of out and back so there's no other option in their minds when they pick. I have to say that I didn't find the clicker retrieve fixed my runaround problems with my Clumber but that could well be my failing. It worked brilliantly on my lab dropping retrieves though. It's good to have lots of options.
Short "work". My 4.5 month old that I'm training for waterfowl hunting gets to retrieve a max of 5 times a day at this age, but my God when that dummie comes out does she go crazy. You do not want a dog to get tired of the game, end it before they are bored of it and keep the training sessions short short short
