Had a lovely walk today. We went to our favourite mountain restaurant. The dogs played in the lake for a while and then they settled beautifully while we had lunch. They were fabulous, other than Shadow growling at an 8-week old cocker spaniel puppy!!!!! Willow was very good with him, though, so we just kept Shadow away. I think he's overflowing with testosterone at the moment, because he is having problems again with boy dogs in general; hoping it will pass again and we're keeping him away from boys we don't know in the meantime. Then, on the way home, disaster struck. We were walking close to a river when suddenly, the dogs darted off, no more than ten metres away and grabbed hold of something. I immediately thought it was a cat, so we both ran over (navigating through an electric fence as we went). My recall whistle wasn't doing anything, so we just had to get there. J got there first, and they each had one end of an adolescent hare and were trying to take it off one another. As soon as I got there, Willow dropped it, but Shadow wasn't letting go at all. There was no way we could open his jaws by force (your instincts kick in and you don't necessarily do what you wish you would have done in hindsight). Then I had a moment of clarity and grabbed a handful of high-value treats which I scattered on the floor. He immediately released the hare and J got their leads on and walked them away while I assessed the damage. It was clearly very shaken up, so I sat with it, stroking it and talking calmly to it until its breathing came back under control. The skin hadn't been punctured at all, but once it was calm, it tried to move and it was obvious that its back was broken. I was devastated, and we decided we had to dispatch it, which we did very quickly. I have no idea how they managed to catch it. It must have either been caught unawares or already unwell. I've been working on chase/impulse control recently, too - there's an obliging, confident, local cat that I've been using to good effect with both of them, and I can stop and recall them from chasing a marmot. About half an hour earlier, I had recalled Shadow happily from a game bird (I think a capercaillie) that he flushed in the woods we were walking through. I think the problem with this was that there was no real chase to speak of, and so I didn't even realise they were chasing something until it was too late - and once they'd caught it, that was it. So, I feel absolutely horrible, and now have to come up with a plan. I have a rabbit skin dummy that I'm going to start using for hold/drop training, and gradually build it up to recalls. Tomorrow, I'm also going to follow Julie's lead and buy a remote controlled car. I'm going to build up to using high-value toys, including the rabbit dummy, strapped to it. I'll then buy some scent and use that. I know the trainer that I've seen does training with birds and I think that would also be a real benefit, so I'll be sending her an email to see what preparation work I need to do before we can do some of that with her. This isn't something that is easy to proof against out on walks - other than the fact that set-ups would be nigh-on impossible, this is only the second hare I have ever seen in ten years of living here. I know they are around, because I see their tracks in the snow, but they're really elusive creatures, far more so than rabbits (which we don't have). If anyone has any other words of wisdom, I'd be delighted to take them on board. It was so hard not to be furious with the dogs afterwards, because we were so upset, but knowing that they did nothing wrong in their eyes and that any repercussions would be too late, pointless and counter-productive, we just walked them off calmly on-lead for a while until we were happy to let them off again.
What both your dogs did was entirely natural. I remember sobbing tears when one of my first dogs caught a rabbit and it died in my arms. Maybe there was something wrong with the hare as they caught it very easily? Hares are very enticing to dogs and one of my German Pointers chased one to the horizon (or so it seemed) in flat Lincolnshire! My one Lab has seen one hare and chased it, my young Lab has never seen a hare, as like you, they are rare around here, so it is difficult to proof not to chase them. I don't see any rabbits around here either, but if I did, I would teach 'sit to flush' and the stop whistle.
Gosh Fiona, that sounds pretty traumatic for you. I'm sorry I can't help with the training part at all. not my forte as you know. Do you think it was worse because they are siblings, a kind of pack issue? Its so difficult in my opinion to proof against wildlife using only positive training.
I'm not sure if it's worse them being siblings, but I think the fact there were two of them made it worse once it was caught, as they were trying to get it off each other. Willow, despite being far more keen with her nose, doesn't have anywhere near the same chase instinct as Shadow; he is the one I've done most work with around cats because he wants to chase them. If I'm alone with Willow and a cat walks past, or a marmot calls, she just looks in its general direction, but wouldn't run after it. When they are together and they see something, Shadow will instinctively chase and Willow then runs after him rather than the thing he's chasing, but she generally gives up because the chase just isn't that exciting to her. So, I don't think there's any real "pack hunt" going on there. However, they do like to tease each other with toys at home, and when one of them has something, the other one tries to get it off them. So I think that's what's happened with the hare.
Definitely worse when there are two of them, Fiona. Not sure how you can proof that, other than keep working on the stop whistle...
Sounds like an awful experience for you . At least they both let go.....I know a few dogs that would not of let go no matter what.
You poor thing. Very distressing. My guess is that the hare was unwell already. I think it's an achievement that your dogs did not run off with the hare to prevent you from getting it. I don't think we can ever entirely eliminate the possibility that our dogs will catch something and kill it.... My previous dog was a lamb with all our chickens, ducks and ducklings (following lots of training) but if he had ever caught a rabbit or cat he may well have chomped it...we just made sure he never had the opportunity. Other than that all we can do is try to train as much steadiness as we can around running things and work on that recall, stop cue etc. I think the stuffed rabbit strapped to the radio controlled car is a good idea. I think you should go one better than Charlie though and buy a drone
Sounds a very distressing incident. Whether the hare was unwell or not, for me, is immaterial. The dogs ran for it, failed to recall, caught it and failed to drop/release and ultimately caused the hare's death
I've been pondering this one for ages without any real "light bulb" moment. Firstly I wouldn't beat yourself up over it even though it was upsetting for you. It's what dogs do. The pulling of the hare between them was most likely dividing the game rather then trying to steal from each other. Dogs work together to tear up carcasses in the wild and it's what they are playing at in games of tug with you if you ever do that. I would have thought it's a very difficult thing to train out on the hoof as the incidents are by their very nature going to be completely random. You could try enrolling for some gundog training classes though. They're really good fun and do train amongst other things to stop running-in which is effectively what the dogs did when they ignored your whistles etc. You don't have go on shoots to do the classes. I've been lucky, though, with my dog. Lady has never shown any interest in chasing rabbits or birds once she realised at an early stage it was pretty much a waste of time. If she runs with deer, it's in the opposite direction as she's frightened of them. I think your dogs catching the hare so easily was probably a fluke incident. Lady will go for pheasants, however, and I find it a continuing uphill battle to stop that. Some intensive training to stop running-in this summer has helped a lot, but the bottom line for me is if she accidentally winds one hunckered down in cover right next to the path, she's on it in a flash and reacting in time is pretty much impossible, although she will deliver it flapping to the hand with luck.
I entirely agree that whether it was unwell is irrelevant, considering the outcome; it was more me wondering how on earth they managed to catch it, especially so quickly. A hare is generally far, far faster than my dogs. I can't blame the dogs for the failures to follow cues, though, as they are entirely mine through obvious lack of proofing at this level of distraction. I would love to go to regular gun dog training classes, but that sort of thing just doesn't exist in Andorra. I've had one gun dog training session last time I was in the UK and plan more every time I come back - I've not been back as much as I'd hoped, what with trying to buy a bloomin' house in Spain, which is proving troublesome, but I have big plans to go on a couple more 1-on-1s, as well as the odd weekend and even a week's holiday next year. I'll be emailing the trainer shortly to see what courses she can suggest for me to plan to attend, considering the circumstances. Thank you all for your kinds words; it's just so bloomin' difficult, this training lark. One day, you feel like you're doing so well, concentrating on the things you think are most relevant to your situation, but then something crops up to blow all that out of the water and make you refocus on something different. I need to win the lottery so I can give up work and commit all my time to training...
You did the best you could in the circumstances. He dropped it - if rather too late. It's very unlikely that they will be able to do the same again - I am sure the hare must have been ill or injured. Well done for dispatching it. Try to put it behind you and not worry. A quicker 'drop it' would be good but still may not work with the excitement of a live animal in his mouth.
I suppose I'm not worried as such - any cue would have been asking too much in those circumstances because they're just not proofed against it. Horrible as it was, and not something I ever want a repeat of, it highlights the necessity to really work on proofing above and beyond what you think "pet dogs" will ever need. When I mentioned the remote controlled car to J, he suddenly became a lot more interested in dog training...
This is really difficult, and I agree this kind of thing is much worse with 2 of them. I am having a rough time with pheasants up the hill just now, or to be more specific, young pheasants that don't fly as far as the adults and land tantalisingly in long grass. They are both interested if they are out with me on their own, but Cuillin is easily called off a chase. Brods much harder. Together they are a nightmare, and just whip each other up into hunt frenzy, to the extent that I have been walking them separately recently for their long walk, and their walks have been a lot about training again for the past month or so. Brods has been on a long line doing a lot of impulse control training (Cuillin has too, though not such an issue on her own). Last year I had got Brods to the stage where he would sit when he flushed an adult (actually, he kind of seemed hard wired to know to do that, I just reinforced it) and I could recall him post flush. He has relapsed with the young ones being out and about, so we are having to start all over again. Other dog owners think I'm a bit mad, and don't seem to bother, as the hill is full of over excited spaniels and flapping pheasants, but I feel rotten about them chasing the young ones, aside from not wanting them to chase any wildlife at all!
So difficult.......in the UK I think the answer would be training in a rabbit pen in order to proof to the required level. If you don't have the facilities though there's not much you can do you can get bolting rabbits which are basically rabbit dummies on a bit of elastic. Some dogs hate them though including my friends fabulous dog which is an open standard dog and is shot over extensively. Try not to worry about it you despatched the poor thing quickly and you can only do what you're already doing x
The chances of this happening with two dogs running free off lead are much much higher than with one dog. Two dogs will instantly be a pack hunting with all the instincts that involves. Maybe walk them with just one dog off lead at a time and make every walk a training walk. Memory retrieves and seek backs are brilliant for that sort of thing.
It's a good idea, Heidrun. I do treat most walks as training opportunities, but do also give them free-running time together, and if I'm being honest, we'd walked quite a long way on Sunday and so it had definitely turned into more of a free time thing. I'll definitely try having all walks as one-on, one-off now. I've done this for limited portions of time and it's varied in how well the one on-lead accepts it; generally they're happy, but if there is water or another dog around, there will be lots of frustration. So, that in itself will be good for them. I've emailed the trainer in the UK to see if she can suggest any training days etc for the rest of this year and all of next year so I can book things up.
Oh no....I bet you felt awful. I don't feel very well qualified to comment....if Charlie chases something he shouldn't, it's because he is "an out of control show line dog", and if he sits perfectly when he flushes a pheasant it's because he is "a low prey drive show line dog"... But, two things I've learned that are relevant are: Free running is the enemy of control - if Charlie free runs on walks, his attention on me, and his responsiveness to cues, takes a nose dive - and he starts doing "nose down, following a scent" mad run offs. The solution is to keep him close, and keep him busy.... If I don't want him to chase things, a zero tolerance policy is best - no chasing anything. No squirrels, no seagulls, nothing - no chase means no chase - ever. I don't know if the book Stop! might be useful reading. I read it when researching whether it is possible to stop a seasoned chaser from chasing things using positive only methods. I reviewed the book. It's here: http://thelabradorforum.com/forum/b...d-ryan-and-predatory-chase-behaviour#post7864 There were quite a few things in it that I found helpful (even though my problems are a mad ball chasing habit....).
Thanks, Julie. I'll certainly look at that book. I wouldn't call them "seasoned chasers", although it could possibly turn into that, left unchecked. I've been working on Shadow's chase instinct with cats and other people's balls, and I'm happy with progress, although we're not perfect on that yet, so couldn't expect him to ignore something as exciting as a hare. I think the radio-controlled car, and things like working on proofing the stop whistle to tennis balls will certainly help build in some impulse control. In relation to this, would you say that allowing a dog to retrieve dummies etc is enough release to allow suppression of unwanted chase behaviours? And would you include tennis balls in this "nothing"? Also, I often use a still-quite-puppyish switch retrieve, where I throw a dummy and allow them to chase it immediately, they return it to hand and then I throw it in the opposite direction, so they're always chasing. They're steady to me throwing a dummy if I ask them to sit first, so I never saw it as a problem - I give them a cue before the throw if they're allowed to chase it. Would you advise stopping this, too? To be honest, I could probably change it to a "real" switch retrieve now, anyway. I used that method to build enthusiasm for retrieving and they're both very motivated by the retrieve itself now, so probably don't need that extra level of excitement... Sorry, I went off track, as usual
It's all very interesting, I think. I do not know what Charlie inherited vs what I created really. On the one hand, it's possible that without knowing what I was doing, I diverted a strong chase drive in Charlie onto toys, balls and dummies when he was very young, and because the one thing I was absolutely consistent with from 8 weeks old was "you do not chase, or show any interest in, any form of wildlife" then that created what I ended up with. On the other hand, it might be that I created Charlie's obsession with toys, balls and dummies, and he would never have chased those otherwise (or anything else). But David Ryan wouldn't agree with that (in that he says the desire to chase is inherited and the target is learned). Either way, it is absolutely the case that for Charlie, retrieving (in the loosest sense, given his still flaky return) is definitely enough for him as an outlet and if he is deprived of it, his impulse control generally suffers badly. For Charlie (since the target is toys, balls and dummies) no chase absolutely has to apply to balls. I don't think this would be so critical if balls weren't his learned target though. Stopping switch retrieves with no steadiness has been a big breakthrough for Charlie's steadiness in general, much to my delight (given Charlie's history, steadiness is now more important to me than a good return). And now the only time he gets to run after a ball is after a "take it" or "run around" cue (or I make a mistake, of course).
Julie, one of these days I would love to spend some time with you and our dogs doing a spot of training and talking about these things!
