I bought Perfect Fit harnesses for my two a couple of months ago. They generally walk very well, so I have only used the back D-ring for walking them. If they do pull, I use it as a training opportunity. However, this morning at the end of our 90-minute walk, I had them back on their leads to get home when they got the wind up them and started pulling. I was short of time and couldn't spend the time training, so figured I'd give the front ring a try to get over this 500m section until I could let them off again. Even streaming treats or luring wasn't working - the smell that Willow was after was far better than cheese and sausage! Anyhow, it didn't work at all like I expected. The harness, which I'm pretty sure is fitted correctly, having reviewed the fitting video, just twisted on her body, looking really awkward and uncomfortable. It certainly didn't stop her pulling in the slightest. In the end, I turned around and went another route home, adding an extra kilometre onto the walk, but probably working out quicker in the long run. I know that it's been said that Y-shaped harnesses aren't ideal as front-fastening harnesses, but I didn't think it would be this bad - or ineffective. I'd never advise using the front ring on a PF harness again.
I don't have a Perfetct Fit harness but I did buy a Cozy Dogs Y shaped harness with back and front D rings, I had exactly the same problem with the twisting and it was correctly measured. It looked so uncomfortable and changed Charlie's gait so I stopped using it, very annoying as they are so expensive. I now use the Happy at Heel harness which is so good and a whole lot less expensive and Charlie is happy to wear it I would never recommend this harness to anyone.
I'm not going to give up on it and buy another harness, because I don't need a front fastening one really and am perfectly happy with the PF for the rear fastener. I just don't think it's fit for purpose if you're after a front-fastener.
I'd never use a Y shaped harness as a front fastening harness - I honestly can't see how it could work well. Mind, I'd never use a front fastening harness anyway, unless I absolutely had to do so, although can see why for short distances in the situation you describe it would be handy.
Well, to be honest, it was more of an "out of interest, while they're pulling, let's see how it works", because I did have the option of changing direction, and would have done that immediately had I not had the front fastener. Although, if it had worked, it would have been far faster to get over that short distance the way I was initially headed. It was an experiment that gave me a bit of insight and experience but nothing more. Lesson learned
In certain situations I have to use a double ended lead and attach both the front and back. Casper though doesn't pull usually, if stressed he does try and get ahead on a walk, and if that happens I work on us both being calm and relaxed until he settles again. I have the lead loose in my hand and the focus on the back attachment, so there is slack at the front.. I use the front combined with the back purely in emergencies as Casper can be very reactive. Mostly he walks beside me on the back attachment. When you have a reactive dog you have to be prepared for anything, especially other dog walkers who allow their dogs to come up to Casper (on lead) then shout at him when he starts to bark. When Casper lunges, it is 31kg of a very powerful black labrador, although this scenario is becoming rare, I can't risk just a back attachment as I would have less control. Sometimes all I need is just the slightest nudge on the front attachment combined with a "turnabout" cue and we can move away from the trigger safely. He can get "transfixed" by a trigger, so the nudge on the front attachment, combined with a cue helps to get him back focussed on me, then we can move swiftly away if Casper is too aroused to deal with the situation. I agree though with the above observations and can't really see how a front fastening attachment really helps with controlling pulling without a lot of forceful twisting motion which really can't be good for the dog.
Oh, I'm not saying there's no need for some people and some dogs to use corrective harnesses, not at all - like you say, if you have a reactive dog of any significant size, it could be dangerous to lose control of them - with consequences for them and for you. Also in situations where you or the dog may be carrying an injury. I was just perplexed at how it didn't seem to do anything at all in this situation, other than twist the harness (not actually the dog in this case!). I've emailed the makers to explain what happened. They said that it certainly shouldn't do this and suggest that my front piece is too large. They've asked for photos and videos. Give them their due, they do have good customer service.
I don't have less control on a back fastening harness - Charlie is also a big, strong dog. When he lunges on a back fastening harness, and he did for months and months when he was on extended rest - his front feet get lifted up slightly, and he has a lot less traction. I know people say they have a problem with it, but for me it just is not a problem at all. What happens to a dog when it lunges and the lead is attached to a front D ring? It must spin the dog round towards you with the energy of the dog's forward movement biting on the offside shoulder....it makes me shudder a bit to think about the forces on the dog's body.... I know I'm over sensitive about this, as I have a dog with joint problems, but even so....
I think I'm super lucky that my two aren't lungers. When they generally try to pull - for example, if they see their sister (their biggest pulling trigger and a work in progress) - they stop as soon as they feel the pressure, but then lean into their harnesses until they realise they're not getting anywhere with that approach and come back to me. This lean isn't enough to unbalance me. If they both seriously lunged while I was walking them at the same time, I'd be in trouble, because their combined weight is more than mine. Luckily, there's been no hint of this happening to date. I think I was imagining it would work as you suggest, Julie, but in my case with a lower impact, because it was a pull rather than a lunge. So the pressure would transfer to the opposite front shoulder and would bring them around in an arc to the right. Not something that I'd want on a permanent basis, but something that would just change their trajectory enough so they couldn't pull towards the trigger in the shortest of terms.
I thought it was just me with the Perfect Fit harness, I bought it after reading the article on here and also some comments on the forum. I spoke to the company and gave them Ripples measurements when I ordered it but it does seem the front piece is just too large as I've got it done up as tight as it can be and it does seem loose to me and, as you said snowbunny, swings round when you use the front D ring. Although I don't need to use it very often I was hoping to go back to visiting markets etc when the weather is better to help with Ripples socialisation, and I would definitely need to use it then. I shall be interested to see what the company have to say as I don't really want to have to buy anything else and anyway OH is already a bit fed up with the money I have spent on it as I told him how well it would work and it doesn't really seem to do the job as I expected.
I would imagine they would have full tractive force - not to mention momentum - if they were walking on a loose lead and then suddenly ran/jumped towards something. I can see it would be different if they were already at the extent of the lead, because they wouldn't have the slack to take up. Like a dock start on water skis. If the boat moves out to put the tension on the rope before applying the throttle, the skier can brace against it and pop into the water in control. If the boat belts off when the rope is still slack, the skier goes flying through the air, head first Whenever I'm walking them on pavements, I always have the slack taken up for this reason, but elsewhere there's always that occasion when you drop the slack to fish a tissue out of your pocket, answer the phone, or whatever. Murphy's Law would mean that would be the exact moment something unexpected happened!
Well, yes, if they are moving and have mass they have momentum. That doesn't mean that translates to a force on you equal to their weight.
following this with interest since I have a perfect fit harness too but have only ever used the back ring. I got the front ring since it was an option but haven't needed/wanted to use it - I think I read that it was only meant to be used in combination with the back ring and not on its own - but that was as far as I got.
Well, when there's no friction (icy), it almost does. One small Labrador (25.2kg) can reach a velocity of 3.4m/s within two metres. Assuming a constant acceleration, that makes a = 2.89m/s^2. So, horizontal force for one Lab = 72.83N. For two identical dogs, this would be 145.66N. The force working on me, assuming a lead angle of 30 degrees would be 145.66 x cos(30deg) = 126.1N If there was zero friction (not far off, when it's icy), then this would accelerate me at 126.1 / 52 = 2.43m/s^2. Kinda quick. Obviously, as the friction increases between you and the ground, then the acceleration decreases, and if you're wearing rubber-soled shoes on tarmac, then you're probably safe. If you're a box. But we're not boxes, we're complicated structures that defy my basic mathematics, with all sorts of levers (arms, legs) that are in a constant state of fluctuation between balance and imbalance. So, if the dog or dogs lunge when everything falls into place in your favour, then of course you're not going to move. Conversely, if everything conspires against you - you've already put yourself out of balance by starting a step in the same direction as the dogs, the initial jerk moves your COM in such a way that you can no longer stand, you happen to be on wet grass on a slope.... - then you're, as the techies would say, screwed The website says you should always use a double-ended lead, but never have pressure on both the front and back at the same time. The reason being that you use the back ring as the main point of contact most of the time, but if you need to, you hold the lead so that the first point of contact is on the front. I guess you could just move your lead from one ring to the other if you only had a regular lead. I have double-ended, but except on this one occasion, they're always clipped onto themselves so it's effectively the same as a regular lead and attached to the back point.
Oh Lordy, you had to assume ice and zero friction to make that (almost) work snowbunny! A for effort at least. I'll check it later.
Hehe, thanks! To be fair, we *do* get a lot of ice.... I remember when I did my applied maths A-Level, we were always calculating things on infinite height walls with zero friction. Always made me wonder exactly what application "applied" maths was for. I think the levers and balance points is the main thing, though. As we walk, we're constantly off (static) balance, since that's how walking works. We're dynamically balanced, of course, but if something changes the dynamics, such as a force applied in a different direction, then it's pretty easy to end up AOT.
I have the perfect fit harness, at first it was a little big but I and the company knew this was going to be the case. It was because Dexter was so near the end measurements that I'd have only got a couple of weeks out of it. Once it fitted him properly I have sometimes used the front and back rings together and find it works fine and doesn't slip round. I prefer my original double ended lead from our first harness as it has extra D rings on it so that I can make a handle on one end. I rarely let Dexter have the full length of the lead which is 2 metres because when I have and he's suddenly pulled, I'm nearly pulled over. I have a knot in the lead that allows some slack but not enough to get up momentum. He's either running free or on a short lead for my safety. This may change as he progresses with his obedience. I love this harness and would definitely buy it again. When I use both rings I have the shorter part of my lead on the back and use the front looser, no tension on either end. I give a little cue and nudge on the lead if I have to. Other times I've attached to the back of the harness and the front of the lead to a collar so that he gets use to a collar and lead too. I personally don't like harnesses with straps going across the front, they seem to change the gaite of the front legs but that's only my observations.
I'm not weighing in on the momentum/friction/acceleration debate as I'll become obsessed and spend the whole day investigating different scenarios! Haha The harness is an interesting one though. I was looking at the perfect fit harness for Ella as I had been having a little trouble with her pulling and my lack of balance in pregnancy. I struggled to commit due to a combination of cost/difficulty measuring/difficulty accessing from Australia/I only want the front attachment temporarily while I train and the fact that Ella would out grow it. Luckily a friend leant me another harness with front and rear attachment that I have been able to use for now. I use a double ended lead and for 90% of the time I only need to rely on the rear attachment. When Ella "forgets" and starts a bit of a pull, I only need to use the front attachment for a short time, regain her focus and she's fine. However, if she decides to engage her 9 month old lab brain and become completely bonkers, I find the front attachment quite useless as it pulls the whole harness around.
I think that's key...my dog has pulled me over twice. Both times on mud, I was off balance, and he was on a flat collar. It wouldn't have mattered what he was wearing, the result would have been the same. I honestly have never felt him pulling on a harness has carried a risk of him pulling me over. Edited to add - I have a significant weight advantage over my 4 stone 10lb Labrador! So that didn't matter either!
