Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

So we had our first one to one gun dog session yesterday. This is a bit of a long ramble so I apologise in advance, but it was quite a surprise/shock! My aims with gun dog training are firstly to improve their general obedience and behaviour in the Real World, in particular lead walking/lead manners, get good Stop Commands going for both of them, and then move onto proper gundoggery stuff with a focus on managing young Brodick around wildlife, as well as them having fun.

It was quite intense, and I had my first experience of negative reinforcement. Basically, if they dogs did as the trainer asked he was lovely with them, fusses and pats and good dogs. If they didn’t, he was down on them like a tonne of bricks and physical with them –brodick mainly. He watched me walking with them, said they are just taking the p*ss out of you, took Brodick off me, and for the next ten minutes if he moved his nose past the guys leg he was jerked back into position pretty roughly. He also got half pushed into a hedge with a knee nudge. He got a bit panicy about this and tried to jump up at me, after two warnings from the guy not to jump up, on his third jump it was a sharp bop on the nose and he was pushed onto the ground and fell over. He didn’t jump at me again.

Brodick was quite obviously very stressed for the first fifteen minutes or so, panting, licking his lips, and constantly trying to get to me. Cuillin looked petrified. The trainer pretty much ignored her and he said she is obviously very sensitive so it will be easy with her, he focused on Brods. Cuillin has never been so obedient in her life as she was for that hour, but she had her tail between her legs and was shaking a wee bit. She got one bop on the nose for not doing what she was told. I was feeling rotten for both of them, but after about twenty minutes Brodick suddenly got the message very clearly, and calmed down, and when the guy called him over to him at any point he would run over to him wagging all over and smiling. By the end of the one hour session they were both walking at my heel in the middle of exciting countryside, with dogs around, perfectly.

I’ve been pondering the session a lot. I am a complete softy with my dogs and I found it really hard to watch Brodick getting so stressed and Cuillin looking so scared. The physical aspect was the worst to watch. I asked the guy if he thought he was hurting them and he said no, I’m not using a lot of force, they are just getting a shock, or a fright from suddenly being in a hedge. After the session the guy explained to me that the issue with only using positive reinforcement is that they need to know when they are doing wrong too, and a few short sharp lessons and the behaviour is changed and they are praised then for being good. I focus on giving them praise when they are good but there are no consequences for them when they aren’t. I have spent nine months trying to teach them to walk to heel with a 'positive' approach only, which has actually meant nine months of me nagging them every day and getting frustrated with them, which they will no doubt sense, and them getting frustrated with me too. This morning they were impeccable on the lead, I just had to say ‘That’ll Do’ very very gruffly to them if they started to pull, and they would both walk to heel perfectly, at which point I heaped praise on them. Brodick was impeccable on the walk, if I called him, it was instant recall.

The purpose of my ramble I guess is to say what do we all think of negative reinforcement? In terms of outcomes, this session was really hard for me but it achieved in one hour what I have been struggling to achieve in nine months. The dogs got lots of praise from the trainer as well as negative reinforcement, and he gave them biscuits at the end. Now, I will never be able to bop them like he did, and doubt I could get physical with them to the level that he did, but just one day of me being pretty fierce to them verbally when they didn’t do as I ask them today (immediately changing to Lovely Happy Owner when they were good) made our walks a different experience. The dogs were happier, I was happier, and we had a lovely walk. Both of them were absolutely fine when we got home last night after the session (though they were both on my lap on the sofa most of the evening!) brodick is still a happy waggy silly boy, just an instantly better behaved waggy silly boy, he responds to me much more quickly around the house and he was very different on the walk today. Cuillin was fine too, though she was very much just watching events (in mild horror).

Any thoughts much appreciated….

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

I would like to say that if you achieved in this hour was more than you have ever achieved before, then thats great but , always a but isnt there ? I wouldnt like my dog to feel frightened or be bullied into submission , that would have upset me a lot as it obviously did you too .
I know I am a softie but prefer to have a dog wanting to do something , wanting to please rather than be afraid not to . I guess all our dogs are different, some more sensitive than others, Sam would have gone to bits I know :

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

Hi Debsie,

I don't think there's much question methods like this work. It's up to you whether they're acceptable for you and your dogs.

Our first dog training classes were a bit like this, Riley ran past me on a long line which I stepped on, I knew the line would slip under my foot it just allowed me to grab the line and bring Riley in to me. I pointed out I wouldn't have stood on it if it would have brought him down at which point the trainer said he would have as it would have taught Riley a lesson and he'd be less likely to do it again. I decided that was but a bit strong for me but I have used short tugs on his lead and quick changes of direction to get him to heel.

There's little doubt in my mind that Riley respects my friend more than me, she's been brought up with spaniels and is not averse to the odd bop on the nose. He loves to see her though, she hasn't dented his enthusiasm for her, her dog (his best friend) or life in general.

I struggle with the balance between positive and negative reinforcement but my over riding feeling is as a beginner I would hate to make a mistake and be too forceful so I very much err on the positive side and if it takes longer so be it(it's also my natural inclination). The trainer I've seen most recently told me how he was encouraged back in the day to dominate his first dog(a spaniel) and he felt it very much took 'the shine' off his dog, since then he's taken a much more positive based approach. I felt that was more my kind of trainer

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

Thanks folks, great feedback, and I'm keen to hear more views too. I'm still thinking about the session, I can't focus at work....like Kate I dont want my dogs EVER to be afraid of me, i want them to respect me and to do things because of that, because they want to....was Brodick afraid of the guy...I dont think so by the end. he was shocked, and uncomfortable at first, but his behaviour around the guy at the end of the session wasn't fear or submission, it was very much respect for sure, but waggy smiley playful too (the guy was giving him a tummy rub and he loved it). Cuillin was scared, without a doubt. She is scared of a lot of things, and this was obviously very scary for her and I don't want to make her scared. I'm also very positive in my approach by nature, and worry that as novice I don't know what is 'too forceful', I know for a fact that I am too soft on the pair of them and they DO take advantage of me, but with Cuillin in particular I worry about my approach as she is SO sensitive. yet she can also really take advantage of that with me and play on it a bit....she's a clever girl....must try and do some work...

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

So sorry that its upset you so much Debsie , but can understand it , I would have been just the same x

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

I should add that our first trainer would use aversives but was supportive of whatever approach you wanted to take, he had a lady clicker training rescue dogs with serious problems in our class, some people bringing on young dogs for field trials and everything in between (that would be us!)

I hope you get it all straight in your head Debsie I would be the same mulling it over and over. Especially tricky for you with two different personalities to manage!

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

Cuillin sounds very much like Sam Debsie , he hates raised voices . I`ve never ever smacked him or shouted at him so heaven knows why he is like this, just in their nature I suppose, but like Barbara , I prefer to use positive methods even if it takes a lot longer .

 

The use of punishment in dog training

I think it is always an eye opener for people that have only experience modern dog training methods to be exposed to these traditional ones.
I am going to be pedantic here over the term negative reinforcement because that is not what your trainer was doing.

Reinforcement is anything that increases behaviour. Positive and negative are used in the mathematical sense to mean adding or taking away. An example of negative reinforcement would be to inflict pain on a dog, say by pinching his ear, then to take the pain away when he complies with your requirements. This is how US retriever trainers teach a forced hold. They pinch the dog's ear, then release the pinch when the dog takes the dummy in his mouth.

Negative reinforcement is rarely used in dog training in the UK. What your trainer was using was punishment.
I think some trainers latch on to the term negative reinforcement because they dont like to use the term punishment.
But if we all use different terminology, it can get a bit confusing.

There is no doubt that punishment (in this case positive punishment) works. And many modern dog trainers get in a pickle because they try to make out that it doesnt.

However, there can be side effects. And it depends on the temperament of the dog, and the degree of the punishment whether or not those side effects become a problem.

Many, many thousands of gundogs have been trained using the methods you describe, and to be fair, most are probably quite happy.

There are other issues with punishment too, but for heelwork in an older dog that has a pulling habit, it is often the fastest and easiest approach for an experienced trainer to use.

Pippa

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

I'm trying to teach lizzie not to pinch Riley's ear, mostly I just have to remove her from the dog (if he hasn't removed himself already)

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

There are situations in which I will and have used positive punishment. For example if one of my dogs has ignored the stop whistle and is about to chase game I will give either a verbal rebuke or a even a scruffing, depending on the temperament of the dog. I can't see any other way around that particular situation when chasing is so self rewarding to the dog.
But I much prefer positive reinforcement and/or negative punishment in everyday training.

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

So I can get the terms straight what would constitute negative punishment?

Thanks

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

Barbara, negative punishment is taking something away as a consequence. For example, three of my spaniels are madly addicted to retrieving. In a training situation where I have a helper to throw dummies for me I will get that person to pick up the dummy should the dog run in on the retrieve. As a consequence of the dog not waiting to be send the chance of a retrieve is taken away from her.
I am sure you use it yourself in everyday situations. Opening a door for a dog to go out is another example. If the dog doesn't sit and wait patiently to be allowed out but tries to make a dash for it I will quickly shut the door again until I get the correct response. Hope that make sense.

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

Would the same term be used to describe one method I used with my old Lab girl Tess who wasnt as biddable as Sam . She was very food led and worked well for food rewards, if she didnt do as I asked , I would show her the reward and then put it back in my pocket, only giving it to her when she complied ?

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

Yes, Kate, withholding a food reward is negative punishment.
This is quite a good article on the subject. http://www.training-your-dog-and-you.com/Dog-Training-Corrections.html

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

Thats very interesting , thank you . Funny , I would never have thought of the withholding food I did as negative punishment ,having a preconcieved idea that the term related to something physically cruel, but it seems it isnt at all.It certainly worked for my girl, better than anything else

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

Thanks everyone, this discussion has been really helpful and I'm not in such a turmoil now...

I think I may have decided the trainer was using 'negative reinforcement', so any mix up in terminology is mine not his!

For me personally, the key consideration for my new approach to lead behaviour is in Pippa's last words 'fastest and easiest approach for an experienced trainer to use' . I'm not an experienced trainer so I think I need to be pretty careful, particularly with my sensitive girl..

Things have improved again after this morning's triumph, took them for a lead walk at lunch time and no need to be gruff with them now if they pull, I just have to say 'That'll Do guys' in a normal but firm voice and they stop pulling and then look very happy when they get their praise. Brodick drops back and walks with his nose just behind my knee...

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

I do use Positive Punishment, but only when I feel the dog knows what I'm asking of it, but it is choosing to ignore me. I don't use it very often though and I'd NEVER allow anyone else to use it on my dogs. Quite simply because I know exactly how much my dogs can take and I know that my dogs trust me.

A sensitive dog can easily be "broken" by hard handling and it can lose it's trust in strangers, and even it's owner if they take it too far. And without trust, you have nothing.

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

I'm a bit like Heidrun and use negative punishment when required, not as much as positive reinforcement but quite often. However, when required and only with certain dogs I will use positive punishment too, but only on a trained dog who is willfully disobeying - and yes, they do know! Finn was a real softie so a scowl and gruff voice would suffice but Maia is a hard nut and needs a scragging (scruff shaking with big growly voice and on rare occasions a smacked nose) and then I have to reassure Hebe that it wasn't her ( : ), she's another softie and a raised voice is usually enough. At the opposite end of the spectrum was Juno wouldn't take any punishment - negative or positive she simply sulked and refused to co-operate, she was all positive reinforcement (food and good girl was enough), "explanations" and repetitions until she got it.
You need to know and understand your dog to know which will work best for you and them, what you call it doesn't really matter just so long as it's consistent.

Kerryn

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

Debsie, my reaction would have matched yours in every way. In the scheme of things, though, it does sound like this trainer knew how far to go with each dog. In that training session, it does seem that Brodick learned the rules quickly and also learned the he had control over the outcomes and that he could easily escape the bad and reap the good as a result of his choices (which I think is really crucial). In that sense, the training, though a bit rough by modern standards, was not 'unfair' or unclear.

I went to a group gun dog training session with my first dog and, to be honest, it made being pushed into a hedge look like an entirely delightful experience. The trainer used a very unpleasant technique (not on my dog - he demonstrated on his dog) to get the dog to grab the dummy as fast as possible. The dog (a beautiful black Lab bitch) was sitting on a table with a loop of twine around one toe of its front foot. The twine went up and over a pulley and the handler held the other end of the twine in one hand and the dummy in another. He pulled on the twine which raised the dog's foot and tightened the twine around the toe (the dog was obviously in pain at this point). The handler presented the dummy and as soon as the dog grabbed the dummy the twine was released, ending the pain. So, this was negative reinforcement - negative as it involved the removal of a stimulus (pain to the toe) and reinforcement because the end result was to increase the intensity/frequency of a behaviour (i.e. grabbing the dummy). I think that that kind of training definitely constitutes cruelty. Those sessions always began with pain for the dog (as the pain stimulus had to be introduced before it could be removed to give relief). Needless to say, I found the experience absolutely shocking and did not return with my dog.

 

Re: Views please! Gun Dog Session - and my introduction to negative reinforcement

Really interesting discussion.
I use only positive methods with Digby but do want to try and let him know when he has got something wrong. He does not seem AT ALL sensitive to a gruff voice, stern look or anything else I have ever done - I'm guessing for dogs like that the punishment would have to be relatively extreme to have any affect? Can't imagine ever physically hurting him so guess I just have to persevere with the positive stuff. Do you think the less sensitive the dog the more appropriate it is to use punishment? or does the dogs sensitivity have no relevance?
I have to say, the best "behaved" dogs I have been around have all had very dominant style owners, and have definitely been dogs that were punished as well as praised.

that training with the dog in pain sounds barbaric