Re: Walking struggles Thanks Snowbunny. I wholeheartedly agree. It's easy to describe him as stubborn or defiant, but mainly because that's just an easy way for me to characterize what I am seeing, but I do know that he is not a human and does not have the ability to be spiteful. I am just trying to, as you said, figure out what floats his boat and similarly what causes a step backward and work through that. Admittedly when I made the decision to get another lab, I imagined a pup like my last lab. It has been very eye opening to see he different they can be. I would be very interested to see your video of your two and their differences. Tonight was much better. I decided to try without the harness in case it's as simple as that (he doesn't like for me to put it on him). I brought along some chicken for a higher value reward, we stuck with low distraction areas. We only had a few minor stopping incidents. We did have some pulling issues without the harness but he's not so bad that I can't work through that. Will stick with this for a bit and see how it goes. Everyone's comments and the article have been a good reminder about proofing. I am still new to this but will focus on this and try not to keep setting him (and me!) up for success. He's a very sweet chubby boy and currently snoring on the floor, and I forget all about our bad walk this morning. Such a baby still!
Re: Walking struggles OK, well my video session didn't go exactly according to plan for what I was trying to demonstrate! Willow was a lot more focussed than normal and Shadow - well, you'll see ;D I've posted this on my training log as well, so it's a bit of a double-up, but I wanted to follow up on this thread, too. I can't tell you if I handled Shadow's wandering off properly. He had a smell, he wanted to go and smell it. It was where a local feral cat lives (although the cat wasn't actually there). I let him get on with it; my reasoning being that recalling him wasn't going to make a bit of difference, and the bank he had run down was super steep, so I wasn't going to go and fetch him! He wasn't being defiant or disobedient; I was simply asking too much in that environment for him to focus on me for that exercise. When he pottered back, I abandoned the retrieves and did something he finds fun instead - a hand target in this instance. Was what I did permissive? Probably. If there are any experienced positive people with any advice on better ways to handle it, I'm all ears! Anyway, here's the video for what it's worth... https://youtu.be/5hn3RfORSvA
Re: Walking struggles Lovely! I would've done the same. Wait till I can get his attention then recall, then try another different exercise. Next time I do the 'boring' thing early, while energy is higher. I only do one or two of each thing each session, to keep interest up.
Re: Walking struggles Myles had another good walk tonight, I did use his harness again as I just don't think that was his issue. But I am being more conscious about whether or not I was inadvertently treating him for stopping. Brought along some high value rewards and he was MUCH more focused on me (we stopped and did some basic training). For much of the walk he was gliding alongside perfectly. I've loved reading everyone's training logs so I may start one, if nothing else just to keep me accountable to myself! I still have SO many questions so think I will start a new topic :
Re: Walking struggles I just thought I'd comment on this thread as I was having troubles getting Maisie to come inside or move with me when I wanted to go inside (when I let her out to pee, we have no backyard so I take her outside to the curb grass on a lead). I've had some success with asking her to sit and wait and then going inside and releasing her from the wait cue with an "okay" she rushes inside! Haha. So if you have any sort of "stop" cue, you might use that and then release to get him to move forwards… Maisie seems to forget she doesn't want to come in when she's asked to not come in and then "allowed" to come in - haha.
Re: Walking struggles Good tip maisiesmomma. Myles does that a lot too, doesn't want to come inside or go outside when I want him too. I haven't done much focused work on this. I like the idea of the release cue (I use "okay" as well). I've tried with a touch command but he's bored with it if he doesn't think I have a treat. I get a lot of blank stares when trying to get him to go outside or come inside.
Re: Walking struggles What looks like a blank stare might in fact be him giving you his attention as he tries to figure out what you want. Dogs who are not engaged with you don't bother making eye contact. Dogs that want to understand, want to be given something to do or want to tell you something - they're the ones that make eye contact
Re: Walking struggles [quote author=Oberon link=topic=10683.msg159083#msg159083 date=1429922832] What looks like a blank stare might in fact be him giving you his attention as he tries to figure out what you want. Dogs who are not engaged with you don't bother making eye contact. Dogs that want to understand, want to be given something to do or want to tell you something - they're the ones that make eye contact [/quote] I think this is the case sometimes, but other times I think he just doesn't want to. For example, we just did a mini-walk after the storms we had here. And I discovered a very high value reward. Allowing him to splash in puddles ;D. So I decided to have him sit, then released him to "go splash". He loved it. But when we got to within 10 feet of my front door, he stopped and would not budge (assuming he knew fun was over). I tried waiting it out but he was just not going to move. So I decided to lure him with the most high value reward I had in my pocket. He showed interest but still wasn't getting him to go in the front door. I had to pull him in which I hate doing. In that scenario (which I'm faced with often), no words or clapping or high pitched voices or treat lures work. (I'm open to suggestions!) And just 3 hours before he came through that front door just fine and I made a big fun fuss over it so he would think it's super fun. Just to give a mental picture... he's a very laid back, slow to his feet, not ever a super fast mover to get to anything. He has his bursts of energy (puddles of water!) but it's been super hard trying to figure out how I, a boring human, can get him excited!
Re: Walking struggles You really would be better off dropping the "he doesn't want to" thinking. It's not a helpful way to think when you are training a dog because it shifts the responsibility from you as a trainer to the dog, that is, it suggests that the solution is your dog deciding to change his mind and co-operate. Your dog isn't trained to walk at your side when you ask him to in all circumstances - including at the end of a walk. That's all it is. An untrained dog isn't motivated to do lots of things - he isn't motivated to walk nicely at your side, sit when you ask him, come back when you call and so on, and this is because he isn't trained. And the process of introducing the right motivation so he is rewarded for what you want him to do until that becomes a trained response is what you have got to work through. I do wonder though whether your dog always being on a lead isn't helping. It is quite difficult to be interesting to a dog when he is on lead. How about finding some activities or classes where you can do some off lead training and games? That might help you a lot. It might also be the case that he is so quiet and lacking in energy because his life is spent on lead - he is not getting the chance to run, play, splash in streams, chase butterflies, have chasey games with other dogs and so on. You could look for socialisation classes where he could be off lead with other dogs, that could also help you train a recall, so your dog could get some off lead time. I found it easier to train my dog to walk to heel off lead than on lead and being off lead helped with so very many on lead things.
Re: Walking struggles JulieT, maybe I'm not using my words correctly but Reason 2 in Pippa's Article is "He is not motivated to do what you want". Even in this scenario, I am scouring forums and wracking my brain trying to figure what I, the owner, can change what I am doing to figure out how to move forward. Not intending to shift the burden to him. We are on Week 6 of Puppy School classes (but all on lead) and we start Puppy School 2 next. I am absolutely trying to get him to a point of being able to be off lead. But I did not get him until he was 11 weeks old and missed a bit of the window where they just naturally follow you. (I am very familiar with the concept, I got my my last lab at 7 weeks and he was off lead very early and his entire life. I could take him to any park and fetch with him and he was completely focused on me and what we were doing). I should say another issue I am battling through is he has car anxiety. I'm trying to work him up to car rides without anxiety so trips to off lead places can be more common. I have to say, if it weren't for these forums and the emphasis on off-lead I would not have thought much of it. This is not as heavily emphasized (nor allowed) where I am. But I am listening to all of you with your well trained dogs and paying attention Thanks for all your suggestions and I take every one of them to heart!
Re: Walking struggles [quote author=Mylestogo link=topic=10683.msg159191#msg159191 date=1429963401] JulieT, maybe I'm not using my words correctly but Reason 2 in Pippa's Article is "He is not motivated to do what you want". Even in this scenario, I am scouring forums and wracking my brain trying to figure what I, the owner, can change what I am doing to figure out how to move forward. [/quote] Yes, motivation, exactly - dogs are such simple creatures. They only do things if it makes their world better - but this is an automatic thing with them, untrained they will never chose to make their world worse so it's not a case of "I don't feel like it today". They have no emotions or emotional state around this, if it makes their world better, they'll repeat it. So it completely depends on you providing those outcomes (not as a bribe because that doesn't generate a trained response) and then repeating it so the dog becomes trained. Ok, yes, there is a heavy bias towards UK members on the forum, and most of us have our dogs off lead (and train recall like crazy - I bet a huge amount of us are here from being students of Pippa's book "Total Recall", which is excellent by the way if you don't have it). That's just the way we live with them. I do appreciate it's not the same everywhere.
Re: Walking struggles [quote author=JulieT link=topic=10683.msg159198#msg159198 date=1429969509] Ok, yes, there is a heavy bias towards UK members on the forum, and most of us have our dogs off lead (and train recall like crazy - I bet a huge amount of us are here from being students of Pippa's book "Total Recall", which is excellent by the way if you don't have it). That's just the way we live with them. [/quote] And the reason we do it is the pure joy we see in the dogs when they are running off lead ;D ;D Gypsy knows when her walk won't involve any off lead time (she has her working jacket on then) and she tends to walk much slower than when we are going to the park/woods/fields/reservoir! Even 'tho she loves working and doesn't really snooze/settle until after her working walk (we have two - a free run then a work walk round shops/town/on buses etc) I was thinking today that I need to train 'hup-up' a lot better, which means 'speed up to a fast walking pace'. To do this I will use tastier treats when she does it well.
Re: Walking struggles Yes, the UK certainly does seem to have many more spaces for dogs to be off leash. Here in my area of Canada, the places are strictly regulated and they are more "dog parks" than actual spaces to walk and let your dog just walk and be free. If you're not up for quite a lot of dog on dog interaction (and Maisie is still working on play manners) then… those areas are really not helpful to you, especially if you're trying to train you being interesting since dogs usually think other dogs are super interesting… well, mine does. I actually take Maisie to a small neighbourhood park that is not an official off leash park, and I take her to the on-leash area of the beach, and let her off leash as long as there are no other dogs around. I leash her if there are other dogs around unless the other dog owner wants to let them play and it's a dog I know is okay to play with Maisie. I've noticed other dog owners do this and since we're respectful and Maisie never approaches anyone else in the park when we're out there (well, she would approach a dog off leash, but she is very good at just staying with me when there's other people there), it works. Perhaps there's an area like that in your neighbourhood you could find? Maisie also has car anxiety so I know how you feel… she hates the car even though we only go fun places like to see her dog friends or to the park or whatever.
Re: Walking struggles It's totally different in the UK because you are allowed to have dogs off lead in so many places, and you have rights of way/walking tracks through other people's property. It is not like that elsewhere. That's why there's a big off lead culture in the UK - the law allows it. It's not just a cultural orientation or a different way of choosing to live with dogs or a stronger desire to see them happily running free (fantastic to see, I agree ). If the law allowed it in the US, Canada, Australia etc the same off lead bias would exist here too. Unfortunately we are not so lucky. We would if we could.
Re: Walking struggles [quote author=Oberon link=topic=10683.msg159313#msg159313 date=1429994033] If the law allowed it in the US, Canada, Australia etc the same off lead bias would exist here too. Unfortunately we are not so lucky. We would if we could. [/quote] I get that - I find it hard to understand though. Canada, Australia and the US are so very much bigger than this packed little UK island, all that space you have! So I don't quite understand why your laws don't allow off lead dogs. I suspect (but don't know) your wildlife might be scarier or more precious. Or, maybe you do have a culture generally more intolerant of dogs in urban areas. I don't know - but I am interested.
Re: Walking struggles I'm not sure why it is so limited here. It probably really depends where you are. In a rural area, I know people who have quite a lot of property or it abuts with other people's property and they're allowed to run their dogs along there. So the situation might be a lot different in "rural" Canada. There are also places you can take dogs on hikes, etc, but usually requires a longer drive (say 20-30 minutes, since it's so spread out) so it's not really practical for most people who have to work a normal day or go to school to take their dogs there every day. Wildlife isn't a real concern here, although Maisie does her best to try to prevent bird over-population. We have the occasional cougar and lots of deer. Other areas definitely do have bears, etc, and I wouldn't be comfortable letting my dog off leash in case it ran into a bear! But mostly there just aren't that many wide open spaces really where I am - there's the 13 regulated dog parks, which we don't go to, as Maisie doesn't have manners for a dog park, there is a mountain hike I plan on taking her to when she's a bit older, and then if I wanted to drive for 1-3 hours, lots of beaches/hiking areas. But that would be more going camping on the weekend. Most people in Canada live within a certain distance from the US border, and a lot of us live in urban areas, where it is developed to the point that most of the area is houses/roads, etc. Even in the suburbs, you're going to be walking your dog beside a road and it is illegal to have them off leash just on a random public street. Being bigger and more spread out, the places you can take your dog to are more spread out, and it would take 20-30 mins driving for most people to get to one (I assume) if you're in an urban area… Anyways I don't actually know if that's *why*, I suspect public culture regarding dogs off leash also contributes (and I must say, when dogs *are* off leash, at least where I live and what I see, they tend to be the ones without a great recall or training… for every dog that could be safe off leash and has a good recall, there are probably 10 who are definitely not trained/suited to being off leash!).
Re: Walking struggles [quote author=maisiesmomma link=topic=10683.msg159306#msg159306 date=1429991729] Maisie also has car anxiety so I know how you feel… she hates the car even though we only go fun places like to see her dog friends or to the park or whatever. [/quote] How have you dealt with this? Will she get in the car on her own?
Re: Walking struggles [quote author=maisiesmomma link=topic=10683.msg159337#msg159337 date=1430005988] I'm not sure why it is so limited here. It probably really depends where you are. In a rural area, I know people who have quite a lot of property or it abuts with other people's property and they're allowed to run their dogs along there. So the situation might be a lot different in "rural" Canada. There are also places you can take dogs on hikes, etc, but usually requires a longer drive (say 20-30 minutes, since it's so spread out) so it's not really practical for most people who have to work a normal day or go to school to take their dogs there every day. [/quote] So it sounds like the main difference (apart from urban green spaces allowing dogs off lead) is that UK countryside is just more accessible, even if we have a lot less of it - with a lot of it in public hands (eg the national trust and national parkland) and public footpaths across large sections of the rest.
Re: Walking struggles Yes, and also dogs are allowed into National Parks in the UK whereas in many other places domesticated animals are not allowed into National Parks (as they're considered refuges for native species only).
Re: Walking struggles All the reservoirs we walk round belong to the water companies and they go out of their way to make them dog friendly. They all have safe fencing on the borders and plenty of dog waste bins which are emptied at least twice a week. All have plenty of land/woods fields etc too. Here is an article about the one I'm going to this morning http://tinyurl.com/ma7333u **feeling very lucky**
