What are we doing now that we'll change in the future?

Discussion in 'Behavioural science and dog training philosophy' started by JulieT, Feb 3, 2016.

  1. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Some people hate discussions like this - I suggest you move on by and ignore me! :D Hopefully not everyone will hate it.

    I've been reading about training elephants, and horses. And the horror in particular of historic training methods for elephants and their lives in unsuitable zoos. I've also read a bit about positive horse training, and a few other animals.

    I can't help but think when I was a child and visited zoos, I didn't give a second thought to the welfare of the animals there. When I was learning to ride, I didn't think about whether the training methods used on the horses were good for the horse, or whether there was a better way (even though I loved the horses dearly). Why didn't I think about those things at the time? It astonishes me now....

    So that got me thinking. What am I doing now that in the future I will look at a different way? How am I treating Charlie, and training Charlie in 2016 that in 2040 will seem ridiculous or even completely inappropriate.

    I wonder...I wonder whether it will be acceptable to use daycare, whether no-one will feed kibble (or raw), what will happen to vet treatment (or maybe we'll conclude the advancements in vet treatment are inappropriate and stress dogs too much), how we'll view rescue dogs, and breeding dogs - maybe we won't even have pedigree dogs anymore.
     
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  2. Newbie Lab Owner

    Newbie Lab Owner Registered Users

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    What is staggering is the fact that the positive methods we now know about and have been used for many years with wild animals, is well publicised in this context but many dog owners/trainers still don't get it :mad:.

    I have a photo of me as a youngster holding a little monkey that was dressed and on a leash. It horrifies me now when I look at it. When my daughter saw it, she said "aww isn't that cute", my reply was "look again and think, is it really cute or cruel?". We both decided it was cruel but back in the 60's no one questioned it.

    Sorry I've not really answered your question :D
     
  3. SwampDonkey

    SwampDonkey Registered Users

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    don't watch blackfish it will make you cry and so angry.
     
  4. Karen

    Karen Moderator Forum Supporter

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    I know; I went to SeaWorld about 15 years ago and was thrilled and delighted with the orca show. You know the one, where the orca swims through the tunnel with his trainer, and then leaps out of the water in the big pool, with the trainer on his nose... It was fantastic, and apart from thinking that the pool was a bit small for such a huge animal, it never struck me that it was cruel in the least.

    Now we know better. So much better. And still dolphins and orcas are kept in captivity and do shows... :mad::(
     
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  5. Emily

    Emily Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Same! I even remember thinking that they must have such a good life and must really enjoy performing for us!

    I could see dog food/feeding recommendations changing in the coming years. I think human food/diet recommendations are all over the place at the moment and if they manage to settle down, I could see dog food/feeding recommendations following suit.
     
  6. MaccieD

    MaccieD Guest

    Interestingly Karen Pryor trained wild dolphins in Hawaii back at the start of her career using positive reinforcement. Her book Reaching the Animal Mind, which I'm reading for my course, is really interesting
     
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  7. MaccieD

    MaccieD Guest

    Sorry should add that it was a sea life park run by her husband
     
  8. Beanwood

    Beanwood Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Very interesting topic. Probably a deeper understanding and a lean to far more positive training methods have been around for at least 20 years. One of the original dog "whisperers" for example, Paul Owens, I am sure there are lots more. The world wide web, social media, TV have a lot to answer for in promoting the Cesar Millan type of training. (God what I would like to do to that nasty man!)
    My Irish grandmother used to rehabilitate working collies that farmers used to bring to her, saying that they couldn't work them, so I guess instead of getting rid, my Gran used to have them. I never, ever saw her beat, or shout at a dog, and never heard her talk of dominance, she was firm but gentle. If anything, it was me as a nipper that Grannie used to growl at!
    I am curious about what changes may come about as a result of diet...so much has changed even in the last few years (or am I just catching up...) There seems to be a lot more illnesses, cancer ...and dogs seem to be living a lot longer, I wonder however, if this is because we can, so we do. When I was younger I seem to remember dogs got lost, or run over and that was the main cause of death. In my childhood were often dogs running lose in parks etc...bit different today.
    Another musing (climbs on a soapbox.... ) are the types of dogs seen in the shelters in the UK, versus the "trendy" dogs and the huge advertising machine associated with this, the explosion in "pugs" I feel very uncomfortable with. I just can't reconcile in my head that we are literally encouraging breeding of these poor dogs, where it is so evident that we are influencing poor husbandry, as people think bulging eyes and flat muzzles are cute. I seem to remember reading or watching a programme around a London dog shelter, where pugs are being surrendered when owners realise the mammoth veterinary costs associated with these breeds. What will the next trendy dog look like as we head towards the 2020's?
     
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  9. Dexter

    Dexter Moderator Forum Supporter

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    I did ...and it did!He should have gone to prison for what he did.....

    16 years ago I made Chris drive miles in Thailand to ride on the back of a captive elephant and to visit a tiger 'sanctuary' where the tiger cubs were declawed and filthy. Those photos were up on the wall for several years until finally we could afford to go on the Safari holiday we'd dreamed about and I sat and watched herds of wild elephants just doing their thing free in their natural habitat.It was still an intrusion on them though.
    Barbara replied to my Facebook comment about my shame at enjoying zoos ,waterparks and circuses when I was a child the other day, She said, ' When we know better ,we can do better ' and its so true,I will never pay to see a captive animal now. I guess education and 'knowing better" will eventually help with this :

     
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  10. snowbunny

    snowbunny Administrator Forum Supporter

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    If we're talking about the masses, I think that, sadly, we will continue to see a decline in the time people are prepared to invest in their dogs. Everyone these days is after a "quick fix" for their issues - ready meals, ridiculous diets, 8-minute fitness plans yada yada yada. It seems a very select group of people who realise that the things that matter take time. A dog has a behavioural issue and so many people immediately look for how to fix it now, and when that doesn't happen, they resort to mechanical devices or just give up. I wonder if there will be an increase in residential training centres, where you send your dog away to be "fixed" over a couple of weeks or a month. I certainly hope not.

    I also hope that there is something done about the problems with pedigree dogs. I think there is a great benefit in having dogs that are bred for certain jobs, but there is no doubt that it is bad news for those breeds to have such restrictive gene pools. I don't know what the answer is - maybe more crossing with foreign members of the same breed in the short term would help, but longer-term, there has to be some amount of cross-breeding to protect those breeds (or at least "types") of dog that we love. I have no idea how this would be sold to the public, though.
     
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  11. MaccieD

    MaccieD Guest

    I wish I had a magic wand that would stop the breeding of the next "In fashion" dog. In today's society people see a dog in a film or tv programme or with a so called celebrity and want one; and unfortunately where there is demand there are unscrupulous breeders :mad::mad::(:( I would also ban advertising of puppies as being "cockerpoos" or whatever as being something special - no they aren't an exotic breed. They are the result of crossbreeding, frequently without any health tests on either parent.

    While I have my magic wand at hand I would love to see all dog owners having to attend puppy and obedience classes in much the same way as prospective parents have ante-natal classes.

    Sorry rant over .....
     
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  12. SwampDonkey

    SwampDonkey Registered Users

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    dog island anyone?

    I had to watch blackfish over a weekend in short bursts.

    Its just nice talking to a group of people who think the same as me its lovely. Hopefully we can change things even if its just a bit.

    I also like the fact that the moderation is very active on this site I felt so awful yesterday about something which was written in a reply to a request for help that I didn't know what to do, but the modrater stepped in. It was such a relief as i was so worried
     
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  13. Karen

    Karen Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Thank you! We moderators take our job very seriously and we do consider very carefully before stepping in, but sometimes it is necessary.
     
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  14. Emily

    Emily Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Agreed :)
     
  15. MaccieD

    MaccieD Guest

    Totally with you there
     
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  16. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    I do wonder, if as leash laws get tighter, people get more and more 'time poor' and so on, and intolerance for dogs that annoy others in any way increase (so more restrictions), means opinion will change about the wisdom of keeping domestic dogs at all.

    Now, I'm a working dog mum, and try to do the very best for my dog but I wonder what people in the future will think about dogs that face such restrictions in today's society - will the restrictions pile on, and pile on, and then we'll think most domestic dogs don't have a great life?

    I don't think this just about pets - I think there are plenty of working dogs who are kenneled and don't get a lot of human company or activities.

    I just wonder if our views on what is 'ok' for dogs will change....?
     
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  17. Stacia

    Stacia Registered Users

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    I think we were 'thoughtless' when younger and didn't realise that cruelty was involved.

    I think the present life for dogs isn't on the whole, natural for them. Many are left all day in isolation, they have to be kept on the leash in many countries and part of the this country. Years ago, dogs were walked to the school to pick up the children, they had more freedom though I do realise this came with many road accidents which seem very rare these days.
     
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  18. snowbunny

    snowbunny Administrator Forum Supporter

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    As Karen said, we do take moderation duties very seriously and discuss issues as and when they arise for the best solution. Hopefully we get it right the majority of the time. Please, please do send any one of the mods a PM if anything crops up that concerns you, for whatever reason. Most of us are pretty active, but sometimes things may get missed or overlooked, and we're more than happy for members to get in touch if there's anything they're uncomfortable with.
     
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  19. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    And there is always the 'report' button....
     
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  20. Pilatelover

    Pilatelover Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    When I was 14 my parents bought me a standard poodle puppy. So off I went to training classes and I can remember nearly 40 years later being so upset at the harshness. Hence I only ever did a couple of classes and never trained her properly. All these years later I start reading up on dog training and to my delight I come across positive training. Personally I really can't imagine doing anything else, there's no doubt I get it wrong at times. It's a steep learning curve and a year later I have learnt so much. I'm forever spreading the word when I'm out, I'm so saddened to see the amount of people who truly believe Im spoiling my girl. It won't stop me from talking about my training methods though.

    I do wonder about food. I feed Mabel good quality kibble. My nan feed all her dogs on raw food. I'm continuously toying with the idea of changing but feel Ill stick with kibble for now, purely because she seems to thrive on it.

    I also think everyone should go on some kind of course before they are allowed to own a dog, (although I have no idea how this would be implemented). Im astounded at the amount of sad dogs I see, and goodness knows what goes on behind closed doors while some people are at work.

    Sorry I don't think I've really answered your question properly but I plan to read as my as possible in order to make informed choices for the future. Just so glad I found the forum it's such a breath of fresh air.
     
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