Hi everyone, I'm brand new to the forum and I will take a look around once I've written this but I could do with some advice so I hope it's ok to post this already. In September, we rehomed a 4 year old chocolate labrador - he used to belong to family friends, think 6 degrees of separation so we knew of him but didn't know him. He is our first dog as a couple and our first lab, although we have both previously had dogs of different breeds in the past. He is beautiful, is a joy to be around and we have fallen on our feet because he really is well behaved. But (you could see that coming from a mile off, right?!), his one black mark is his behaviour around unknown dogs - he is a over the top with unknown dogs and a humper and is oblivious to what the dog he is attempting to hump might think about it all. We stopped walks off lead as it wasn't fair on other dogs and we sought advice from a local trainer and behaviourist but feel perhaps it hasn't gone quite as we expected. I don't want to be too derogatory because I am well aware that perhaps I have got everything wrong and also, I'm writing this in the public domain. However, a few things stand out... We had a full behavioural assessment and came away with some exercises to do with a clicker, to try and help desensitise him around other dogs and so far, so good with those. It's things sort of unrelated to the training and behaviour that we weren't so sure about. For example, we've struggled with his diet as he has sensitive skin. On vet recommendation, we've put him on Wafcol and it actually seems to be working really well for him. However, we felt that she was quite forceful with recommending food (that we think she is sponsored by) and that she is quite dismissive of our current situation with food (we trying hard to find something that suits him). In the assessment and in the follow up call, she mentioned the brand of food she prefers multiple times. I do also have queries around the exercises and recommendations she has made but I am not a professional dog trainer so I don't know if I should listen to my gut or not. The thing that sticks out most is that she told us to minimise his contact with dogs, ideally no contact for a while. He used to go to the dog walker once a week just so that he was socialising (OH works from home so he has company every day and a lunchtime walk with her regardless). We also encounter many dogs on walks. In the follow up call when we chatted about it and I explained he fixated on dogs he sees on walks, across a road for example, she says we are too close to other dogs and should walk somewhere else! I feel that no interaction with dogs has made him much more excited at the prospect of seeing another dog and I struggle to comprehend how we can teach to behave well around other dogs when he's not around them (although I realise she is trying to give us a base to work from and it will build up gradually). Currently, he does the exercises very well at home and then everything flies out of the window when we see another dog, more so than it did before, it seems. She also recommended a gentle leader, which we have used on every walk since. I'm totally not against using training aids but as I don't know enough about these kinds of head collars, I did feel a dubious. I can't help but wonder whether another trainer would have done so and how much the dog training industry relies on training aids such as these. But again, I'm not a professional so I may be over-thinking this. The other aspect that didn't sit well with me was that she does a lot of the talking and I don't feel there is enough opportunity to try and explain things or ask questions. She is also quite inflexible and it seems she works Monday to Friday 9 - 5 and has sort of made out that anything outside of that is very inconvenient for her but she still does it... At one point she suggested we were expecting too much too soon but at the end of the conversation for the follow up call, she said not to leave it too long as we may need to move on to something else. I also struggle with the fact that she'll never be out on a walk with us, to guide us and support us in a real life situation but perhaps that's a personal preference? Do some trainers even offer this? I think of it like a riding instructor as that's what I can relate to. I have previously changed instructors as I wasn't getting one well with one but also, a riding instructor is unlikely to teach you without seeing you doing what it is you need help with. I wondering if we've done the right thing and I'm wondering what others would have done. I'm wondering where we should go next with this... The whole situation is making me quite fearful of meeting another dog on a walk and it's also making me feel like a terrible owner. I'd really like him to be trying things like scent training and agility and possibly a general handling class, just to see how he does 'work' with me around other dogs but I'm too scared to try it in case it's not the right thing. Any advice would be appreciated it. I apologise for the length of this post. Thank you in advance!
I would change the trainer as thay should come out and work with you. You are paying for this. I had a trainer come out with my rescue spaniel they were useless didn't help me at all gave me the lead back and said never let this dog off the lead ever. I stugged with her where soneone else maybe could have helped. So try someone else. Is it possible to get someone you know with a dog and bring it slowly at a distance when the bad behaviour starts back off. You need someone to guide you so you can reinforce the good behaviour. You could get him nutured to see of that might work. Also change your vet if your not happy with them again your paying for a service your not getting. This is my opinion on what I would do. Good luck with your boy.
Hi @narrow_margins Welcome to the forum. Despite your lengthy post, I still have some questions. What level of obedience does your dog have? Will your dog sit stay in the presence of distractions other than dogs? Why was a head halter considered necessary? Are you having troubling with pulling? What exercises were you shown by the dog trainer? For what end? Did you get taught to do LAT [look at that] exercise? How did the dog trainer make the behavioural assessment if she never saw your dog interacting with other dogs? And never observed your behaviour? How quickly did you think the undesirable behaviour would be mitigated at least to some degree? Why do think it is necessary for your dog to play off lead with other dogs? Let me finish with an observation. Neuturing will not stop the behaviour.
Hmmm, personally I'd be thinking about another trainer just because if all she's doing is talking, you may as well be reading a book or watching a video. I know your dog doesn't sound reactive in the usual fearful way but I think the protocol as described here might help http://careforreactivedogs.com/start-here/ Absolute Dogs ' Naughty but Nice' DVD describes a technique for doing a quick 'about turn' and sliding your hand down the lead which could be useful if you are getting stressed about meeting dogs on walks. I'm also dubious of head collars ( and vet promoted processed foods ) but I'm not an expert that's just my personal opinion.
I'd definatley think on trying another trainer, for me he needs to learn how to socialise around other dogs by being with them regularly so he doesn't get so excited when he meets one, helped with my boy (he was never a humper but did a LOT of lead pulling to the extent where he has almost pulled me over on occasion - a few months of daycare - not always a good choice for some dogs - helped him out to lessen his excitability . Maybe find a trainer who has well mannered dogs who can teach him how to behave. Also if he's not neutered that would be the first thing I'd do is to neuter him, mine was done at 8 months ( a bit young for some people but with his health issues and behavioural issues it had to be done) Labs are a great breed so have fun with him!
I must admit I thought learning how to play nicely was a skill they learnt as pups so it might be too late for socialisation at day care etc. Sounds to me like the trainer has broadly speaking the right idea, aiming to desensitise him around other dogs so you can at least be near dogs without him getting overexcited. It just doesn't seem like she's filled you with confidence so there's something wrong with her communication skills.
My 5 month old puppy jumps at people and dogs I get her to sit calmly while they pass with a high value treat. She is going to adult obedience classes today so will come in contact with lots of dogs.
Sorry, I should have said, he is neutered already and was done long before we got him - I forgot to mention that crucial point! Thank you for replying - I'm glad that you said what you've said. Thanks for the luck too!
Hello, thank you for replying! I'll try to answer all your questions without waffling! In the house, in the garden and on a walk with no distractions (dogs are really his only big distraction that we come across regularly but he does get distracted by other animals) he is obedient and he can sit and wait or sit and focus on us. He can do it when a distraction around but he will have multiple sneeky glances at the distraction. I hope that makes sense and answers that one. In the house, he is beautifully behaved and so respectful. The trainer/behaviourist put him in a head collar to "make him calmer" and "give us more control" - her words. This is despite us saying he walks very well on a lead, except he pulls towards other dogs. However, we had been making good progress, either getting him to sit and focus on his or walking away as quickly as possible or by making us more exciting (or attempting to, anyway). It definitely made him calmer - it completely changed his behaviour on walks and he became sort of resigned and stopped sniffing along. The exercises we were given were a sit and focus (sit, focus for a count of anything up to 30, click, treat), "here" exercise (he comes to us on the command "here", touches our outstretched hand, click and treat) and a "friend" exercise (he looks at a dog from a distance, click, we say "friend", treat and the idea was to decrease the distance eventually). I'm not sure if any of those are or are similar to "look at that". The assessment was done in her training space (a stand alone sort of office space) and she observed his behaviour while he was there. We had to describe situations to her. Apologies for my ignorance but I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "how quickly did you think the undesirable behaviour would be mitigated at least to some degree?". Do you mean in general, as in how quickly did we think it would take for the exercises she gave us to make a difference to his behaviour or something else? I may have completely misunderstood but I have had a long day and I'm tired! With regards to "why do think it is necessary for your dog to play off lead with other dogs?", I can't remember where I mentioned that but I guess I'd rather he played with other dogs than humped them or was able to continue playing fetch (or similar) around other dogs? I don't know - I may have misunderstood this as well. Sorry. He is already neutered - apologies, I forgot to mention that in my original post. Hopefully this helps. I feel like I have no idea because I don't know the language of dog training!
Interesting you should say reactive - thanks for the link, I'll have a look tomorrow when I'm less sleepy!
You're probably right - and I think he was just let loose to play but his version of play is not ideal. I think you've hit the nail on the head with the communication skills.
Reactive probably isn't the right word for his behaviour but I think the solution to his extreme over excitement could be the same - if he can change his emotional response to other dogs and associate them with good things coming from you then hopefully your life (and his) will be easier.
Thanks for taking the time to answer waffling is good too. You might mention something that you regard as unimportant or secondary but it could be very important. Good. I would urge you to treat in the following way. Suppose he has a sneaky glance, and his ears relax, or mouth softens, body becomes less stiff, (it can be very subtle but if you watch closely it will be there. If need be, take a film of your dog, and watch it later. See what you missed. It's easier to see the changes when you are two or three metres from your dog) or he looks back at you, then say Yes and then give him a treat. The reinforcement of calmness is what you are aiming for. I don't see how that would happen. there's the real reason, the trainer suggested. But she should have taught you about distance and threshold rather than equipment. without putting words in your mouth and uncertain about what's happening the apparent behaviour is not good. You do not want the dog to shut down. Do you think you could film the behaviour and upload it here? I've got to go. I will makes observations on your other comments later today. .
All good stuff. Friend is like Look at That, except it is a bit more structured. I would lwatch the excellent teaching video contained in the following thread. https://thelabradorforum.com/threads/look-at-that.22184/ It would have been better if she had actually observed how the dog was behaving with distractions, and explained how you needed to use the cue Friend in the presence of other dogs. That's okay. I was just wanted to know whether you had any idea from the trainer, or your own disposition about how long you might need to train. Don't expect a quick fix. It can take some time to train your dog to be obedient around distractions. I think the crucial thing is to get you to be the centre of the dog's attention. If you for example want the dog to retrieve then she should do so even when other dogs are nearby. Significantly you have to teach your dog to do that. It does not and will not happen by just teaching the dog to touch in your back garden. My apologies. I should communicate clearer. In answer to your primary question, the dog trainer has given you some excellent advice. There are a number of significant things that I think could have been done a lot better. I would have thought the trainer would have made an effort to follow up and see how you were actually implementing the plan. And explained how you were actually going to get the dog to sit stay for 30 seconds. If all you were given was count to 30, then that is a poor explanation. And significantly you don't seem to have been taught how to get some of the skills to work when your dog is distracted by other dogs. Now it may be the case that the trainer did talk about such matters. But it hasn't made an impression on you, because you haven't brought it up in your lengthy responses. And if the trainer was doing things properly it should have made some impression on you. As some other members have suggested here there does seem to be a failure to communicate. The way I'm reading your response is that you feel dissatisfied with the instruction you have received. That alone is sufficient. Look for another dog trainer. Alternatively, I would urge you to start attending a positive reinforcement dog obedience class. You will be taught a lot of valuable skills. And more importantly you will be working your dog to follow your cues when surrounded by other dogs. The instructor if he or she is any good, will teach you how to work your dog around other dogs. You don't need that skill before you start a class. .
