Just wondering what people's understanding or feeling of this is, after a comment on a FB group. My understanding is that dogs are inherently selfish, doing things they want because they feel good, taste good etc. We use positive reinforcement (treats, games etc) to ask our dogs to do what we would like them to do - sit, come back, stop jumping up etc. Those rewards can get faded over time, bringing in the gambling effect, so they don't have to "get something" each time. Someone else said that a dog should be doing things because it "desires to please you". But I wonder, do they? Or do they desire the treat, the ball, the tummy rub that goes along with pleasing us?
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? I saw the comment - it wasn't the first silly one! Gave up on that thread. I think dogs respond to human emotions. If I'm happy and dancing round, my party animal of a labrador thinks "great, what fun!". And I can intimidate and threaten him by being angry. But these types of responses are still about good and bad things that happen to him (a party or a threat). So he might work to please me by doing the things that get him the party and avoid the threat. But there isn't an inherent "willingness to please" no. It's all about the outcome for the dog.
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? I see lots of strange things being posted on there and hardly ever post myself - but I like that we can have a more in-depth discussion here, with the space you get on a forum. I think the point you raise about being angry is also important - people who use traditional methods might say "well my dog doesn't get anything nice and still does what I want, so he must be trying to please me', but like you say, the outcome is still better for the dog if he's not being threatened. I think it's also very easy to put human emotions onto your dogs. For example, it would be very easy for me to say that Shadow is "eager to please", because he's always there with a waggy tail, bounces along in a heel looking at me all the time (something I'm trying to stop him doing), comes over for strokes throughout the day, sits on my feet. When I'm training, he's incredibly quick to offer behaviours that he thinks I'm after and he's always "smiling". He really, for all the world, could look like he was doing it just because he loves me. But in reality, he's just massively motivated by treats and cuddles!
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? Shadow think his owner is great fun, and lots of good and interesting things happen to him when he is with his owner.
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? Hmmm. I'm not quite sure about this. My feeling is that with my particular dog, it's a combination of factors that motivate her. This can be a treat, a retrieve - or sometimes she does something simply in order to please me. For instance, for some reason she hates the back of my OH's car. She won't take a treat when I ask her to get in there - but she does jump in, albeit unwillingly, when I ask her to. Most things we ask our dogs to do are of course based on things they like to do already, just modified to suit us a little. So, Poppy for instance likes to go for a walk, but she has to walk to heel when asked to. She loves to retrieve, but she has learned she is only allowed to retrieve once we send her for the dummy. Yes, they do things that have the best outcome for themselves, but there is an element of willingness to please in it, as well. Luckily for us lab owners, it's a characteristic that they seem to have in spades!
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? From your description, Karen, I'd just say Poppy was well trained.
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? But training her has been very easy, Julie, a lot easier than many other dogs. I do think she has an innate wish - or even need - to please us. It really seems to be one of her motivating factors.
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? I think it's more likely that she is very easy to motivate and less distracted than other dogs, but you have motivated her - through providing her with good outcomes for doing the things you want her to do enough times (which might be fewer times than other dogs that you've thought harder to train) that you now have a reliable trained response.
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? I think this is an interesting thread. I know that I would like to believe Pongo 'wants to please me', but it is equally likely he is motivated by reward - or an easy life. However, I do think that Pongo is particularly keen 'not to displease'. Although we've never used anything but positive reinforcement (honest!), he only needs to be told once a firm 'NO', for him to completely desist from that behaviour - pretty much forever. It is not any sort of fear - I've never seen him afraid of anything - he just really seems to want not to be in our bad books. He was told just once (emphatically) not to come upstairs - now he never does. He was told just once not to sniff things on the coffee table - now we can leave our dinner plates there unattended and he'll ignore them even though they are literally under his nose. He sniffed a Christmas tree decoration and was told 'No' - and completely ignored the tree for the rest of the fortnight it was up, even when left alone with it all night. In contrast, he is not very motivated to learn new behaviours (even if we're using treats) - he loses interest very quickly, as though he doesn't see the point in doing something obviously 'pointless' (from his perspective), just to keep us happy. So I don't think Pongo particularly 'wants to please me', but I do think he wants an easy life and doesn't want to displease me. Does that make sense?
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? Telling a dog "no", firmly, emphatically and so on is not only using positive reinforcement. If Pongo is indeed motivated to avoid your "bad books" being unwilling to try new behaviours in training is consistent with this (I'm not saying this is happening, just the two things you've said are very consistent). Only using positive training (positive reinforcement and negative punishment) hopefully results in a confident dog, willing to try out behaviours to earn a reward - although they do also need to learn that trying new things can result in a reward.
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? I wrote about four different responses to that thread and deleted every one as I found the whole thing irritating.
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? [quote author=bbrown link=topic=9422.msg135527#msg135527 date=1420654757] I wrote about four different responses to that thread and deleted every one as I found the whole thing irritating. [/quote] It's the first thread I've commented on since joining because my welcome wasn't all that positive and they scare me. They don't all seem quite like the people here. I'm all up for having a good discussion, but most of it seems to degenerate into negativity of one sort or another. Facebook, huh?
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? Some of the people in the group can be a bit brusque and it's definitely more likely that a thread there gets antsy compared to here. There are some lovely people too though and a great depth of experience particularly on the gundog side of things that overall I'd say it's a good place to be ;D
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? I've left twice! ;D ;D ;D Once when someone told me the socialisation problems caused by crate rest for dogs with cruciate problems were solved in the past by having the dog put to sleep (do these people realise they are talking to another human? ;D ;D ;D ) and once when (the same person and lots of others) were very rude about show labradors. But on the whole, it's an interesting place.
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? I think so much of it is so far above my level at the moment, and probably always will be, so it's not relevant to me. But the stuff that is, there seems to be a lot of confusion about what the whole positive reinforcement thing is about. Which is kinda odd, considering the whole premise of the group.
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? Yes, I agree with Barbara. The gundog people on there know what they are talking about even though they don't often agree with each other. What I can't get over though is how they manage to work/train their dogs and write endless essays. After a day of trying to keep up with four spaniels I'm too tired and my brain hurts .
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? They: a) don't have a lot to do b) don't train their dogs, just read and write about training their dogs c) work in an office where no-one can tell whether you are writing a report or on facebook d) are consultants with great internet connectivity and spend a long time waiting around and travelling to suit clients e) can take part in Skype calls and type on Facebook at the same time
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9422.msg135617#msg135617 date=1420671364] They: a) don't have a lot to do b) don't train their dogs, just read and write about training their dogs c) work in an office where no-one can tell whether you are writing a report or on facebook d) are consultants with great internet connectivity and spend a long time waiting around and travelling to suit clients e) can take part in Skype calls and type on Facebook at the same time [/quote] ;D ;D You sound like you have some personal experience there Julie
Re: Why does your dog listen to you? c), d) and e) I hold my hand up too...a) if I'm lucky, but b) only on a bad day... ;D ;D ;D
