We have been working for a LONG time getting Charlie into retrieving, well all is very successful at home on the driveway in the park but not so successful anywhere else. He is beside himself with excitement on the drive when I get the ball out, eyes wide, smiling, leaping around . David is inching forward getting through the gate from the park onto his walk he throws the ball he might get 2 retrieves and that's it, the same everywhere else he tries. He tries hunting games in longer grass he might do one/two and then loses interest. It seems that whatever we do it just will not hold his interest and we are just not sure we are ever going to crack this and then everything else will fall apart . Are we wasting our time and does anyone have any ideas that we haven't tried? We have spent a small fortune on various toys etc. not sure what else to do Thanks x
Re: Why is this so difficult? Don't try and push it Helen. If he is interested in two retrieves while out on the walk, then only do one. Be hugely pleased when he does one retrieve on a walk, praise him hugely, and then put the toy away in your pocket! Pretend you cherish that toy above all else; make it an object of huge significance. Obviously Charlie is more hard wired to hunt than to retrieve; so you need the retrieve to be of great importance to him. Be pleased that he does retrieving and hunting in the driveway, that's good. Transferring that to the big wide world is not so easy - there's just so much other stuff going on which is more interesting for Charlie. You mustn't bore him with too much retrieving, that's why I would say a maximum of one retrieve or hunt per walk.
Re: Why is this so difficult? Thanks Karen, we are doing only a couple of retrieves on walks, massive praise and excitement and put the ball/toy away in our pockets. I do a little more than that on the drive mixed up with memories, hunting, stop whistle etc. We have been doing this for months and can't seem to move forward which is very frustrating
Re: Why is this so difficult? Helen, not much help I know but I have the same issue with Brodick, massively into retrieving UNLESS he is in a smelly part of the countryside, then he would rather hunt....I have had some success teaching him to quarter, though it falls apart if a pheasant is near, he just can't contain himself still... just a thought though, Brods is much much more likley to get into retrieving on afternoon walks, when the early scents have died down. Early morning he is like a Jet Propelled Hunting Machine, by afternoon he is a scamperer and snuffler, and is much more keen to retrieve then...does Charlie walk early mornings when the scent is high?
Re: Why is this so difficult? Helen, I know you are keen to look forward... but never forget to look back at where you have come from too That's an awfully long trail of progress you have behind you. ;D ;D If Charlie is using up mental and physical energy retrieving on the driveway - fabulous. If he will also do one as Karen suggests whilst out walking - also fabulous. I think Debsie makes a really valid point about times of day and scent too. That Pointer genetic contribution he has is going to be easily led... Clare
Re: Why is this so difficult? Unfortunately early morning 0600 is when Charlie is walked as he is on a 30 mtr line and I would not be able to hold him if he decided to "go for it" so David walks him and I do his 1 to 1 and I also walk Hattie for upto 2 hours a day and look after a home and family, so no extra time available. At weekends he is walked much later and the result is always the same just no real interest. It's like I have one Charlie and David has another they just don't seem to be the same dog. We are feeling frustrated as we have had him for 2 years 5 months now I know we have come a long way but how much longer ??? Not being able to walk our dogs together even at the weekends is not quite how we planned having a second dog to be Thanks xx
Re: Why is this so difficult? Helen, Karen's advice is spot on Refusing to retrieve dummies at all, is a common problem in spaniels and other dogs that may prefer hunting to retrieving. The following is an excerpt from this article Once the dog is retrieving again, we follow Karen's advice. Do whatever the dog will do happily, ie one or two retrieves, and then put the dummy away. But always, with this dog, until he is converted into a retrieving addict (it happens) do retrieving before hunting. Never let a keen hunter that blinks retrieves, burn off steam before being asked to retrieve To increase the number of retrieves, build up the number of dummies very slowly. If the dog refuses the extra dummy, use the method in the quotes again. He soon realises that he needs to retrieve that 'extra' dummy in order to win his prize of being allowed to hunt. With many dogs this will convert a 'hunter' into a 'retriever' in quite a short space of time. You are essentially using the behaviour he adores, to reward the behaviour that is second best (in his eyes)
Re: Why is this so difficult? Thanks Pippa, Charlie is STILL on a 30 mtr line so he doesn't get to burn off energy so putting him on lead for not retrieving won't have the same affect, he is walked and then on the way home he gets to do retrieving in the park as he will not do it during the walk, so is this WRONG? Extra dummies oh god he is even refusing to retrieve the one dummy I do have so have gone back to tennis balls. Would it help to drive him to a walk and then if he refuses put him back in the car and go home but then he won't get a walk? I don't believe he is a 'real dog' So confused - again! :-[
Re: Why is this so difficult? As I understand it Helen, you only want him to retrieve in order that he has something that interests him, so that he won't run away, right? So you're not really bothered about whether he retrieves more than one dummy, you just want him to bring something back, be that a dummy or a tennis ball, and not disappear over the horizon! Could you try going to the park first, and encouraging him to do a retrieve or two first, BEFORE taking him out on his walk? His reward would then be going for his walk afterwards. Have you tried walking both dogs together, at the weekends, lately? Maybe walking them both on a lead, until they get a bit more used to it. I just wonder whether with your husband and yourself, things might have progressed enough for that now.
Re: Why is this so difficult? Absolutely Karen, we want him retrieving to stop the absconding first and foremost and frankly if he retrieved an old sock I wouldn't care. OK will reverse the order of events in the morning and see if that helps but if he doesn't retrieve do we just go home? No we haven't tried to walk them together on lead for a while, will see if we can shoe horn that in too. Sorry for the doom and gloom it's all just so frustrating.
Re: Why is this so difficult? Just a thought, but when I do his training on the drive sometimes he takes off and runs along the tree line and hedges when I have NOT given him permission, should I bring him inside if he does that and stop training?
Re: Why is this so difficult? I would say, see how he goes first. Personally, I wouldn't take him home if he doesn't retrieve at the park - after all, he needs a walk.. In the garden, if you are very keen for him to bring things back to you and not run around, then you could bring him inside. But you know him best. Just don't praise him so much when he does bring the toy back after running around, just take it off him without a word, so he knows you don't like that so much.
Re: Why is this so difficult? [quote author=Karen link=topic=4349.msg52628#msg52628 date=1391691860] In the garden, if you are very keen for him to bring things back to you and not run around, then you could bring him inside. But you know him best. Just don't praise him so much when he does bring the toy back after running around, just take it off him without a word, so he knows you don't like that so much. [/quote] No this is without anything toy/ball he just takes off.
Re: Why is this so difficult? O Charlie - you do give your wonderful, caring, long suffering mum a lot of trouble! Good job you're totally gorgeous. Helen - I don't know if this is a mad idea, probably if it hasn't already been suggested, but could you try training the retrieve in steps? I know you're not a clicker trainer, but I guess you could still follow the instructions for clicker training in gundog book 1 but just using a verbal marker when he gets it right. The reason I suggest this is because Charlie was completely missing the last stage of the retrieve, bringing it back, and we "filled this in" by training it. It's very strong now. I think I remember you saying that when you have something super exciting like a rabbit skin ball, he is keen enough to run out for it, but just won't bring it back? So the combination of rabbit skin and clicker (or verbal marker) might do it?
Re: Why is this so difficult? Hi Julie, it's not the last stage that's really the problem it's getting him to a retrievaholic stage, he shows little or no interest in retrieving when off our property and we need him to retrieve if we are ever going to stop his absconding and at this rate he is never going to be off that 30 mtr line . I don't know if clicker training can help with this problem ??? I am not feeling like a wonderful, caring person at the moment, I am feeling more like why the hell did I do this and give us even more endless work to do with little reward for US :
Re: Why is this so difficult? Helen, excuse a slightly heretical suggestion here but it seems to me that you are trying to use something Charlie doesn't want to do (retrieve) to replace something he really, really wants to do (hunt and run). And whilst all the suggestions about trying to get him into retrieving are brilliant and exactly the right advice for someone who wants their dog to be a gundog/retriever, my understanding is that you want Charlie to be a well-behaved pet with a decent recall who can be walked with Hattie. So, what is Charlie's favourite thing in the world to do? Does he like playing tuggy with an old rag or bit of rope, tear up newspapers, whatever? Or is it that he just loves to run? If tuggy games float his boat, stop them altogether in the house and just get David to take a tuggy rope on walks and play with him at tuggy only on walks. Use a game of tuggy as a reward for a good recall, and use a game of tuggy to keep his attention on you in the presence of huntable game. I have a colleague who has a very hunt-driven GSP who goes for walks with him with a very tightly rolled up newspaper with kibble in between each sheet. The GSP carries the newspaper and is allowed to stop every 5-10 minutes to tear at it and get the kibble before moving on. If it's just Charlie loves to run, could you consider taking up Canicross with both Charlie and Hattie, so that walks are no longer walks but are training runs for all of you together? You can get some seriously good running harnesses which attach via bungee leads to a waist belt for you/David. I know it's not exactly a relaxing country walk with all the family but at least you could take both dogs together. I know my sister cannot walk Brodick past ducks on a pond, but if he is out running with her he is so focused on the run he will ignore the ducks. As someone who has struggled to control a very hunt-driven dog myself, I feel your pain. I was lucky in that Tarka was and is a very keen retriever so I could use this to my advantage and now have a passably decent gundog who I can off-lead walk through game-infested areas without worrying but I have to say that if I had had to try and train retrieving into her if she had been reluctant and try and make that so good she wouldn't hunt I think I would still have her on a long line. Also, having a dog who just loves to run and run then run some more, one of my sons (a very keen squash player) takes both the dogs out running with him on harnesses with a coupler and a bungee lead to a wasitbelt and they all love it (the dogs more than my son I think!). Just my thoughts from a fellow hunt-sufferer!
Re: Why is this so difficult? [quote author=charlie link=topic=4349.msg52648#msg52648 date=1391693806] Hi Julie, it's not the last stage that's really the problem it's getting him to a retrievaholic stage, he shows little or no interest in retrieving when off our property and we need him to retrieve if we are ever going to stop his absconding and at this rate he is never going to be off that 30 mtr line . I don't know if clicker training can help with this problem ??? [/quote] Having just read Lochan's reply - I have to say, that's all very sensible. On training the retrieve - it has always seemed to me that trying to just "encourage" a dog to retrieve, who isn't already a keen retriever, is a bit of a waste of time (or in my case, encouraging a mad addict of a retriever to give up the blasted dummy when the thing he wanted most in the world was to hang on to it). We train everything else - that is, we work through structured exercises, step by step, and build up. It's always struck me as the best way to train retrieving too. Why wouldn't it work?
Re: Why is this so difficult? If Charlie hunts the driveway hedge without permission, go and get him back to the position he left, sit him with the lead looped round his neck, give him permission and drop the lead. He shouldn't be able to go if the lead is round his chest. The secret is, I think, that you get him back each time until he will listen for permission, then you let him go. Have you thought of buying a pheasant pelt (Sporting Saint sell them) and putting it on a dummy, or you may be able to buy one with the pelt already on, you might find Charlie becomes fixated on that. You can hide it out in the fields and get him to find it or you can use it as a retrieve.
