Re: Why is this so difficult? Hi Lochan, I don't actually think Charlie has a "thing" he just wants to run and run oh and run a bit more, his head is mostly scanning the horizon and he does mill around on his long line a lot more than he used to . Nothing at all holds his attention and there lies the problem, we can keep walking him on a 30 mtr rope for the rest of his life but you are right we want to walk our dogs together but can't because Hattie behaves and Charlie doesn't and he gets frustrated with her being off lead and him on and he becomes difficult to hold, hence this ridiculous separate lives David and I now lead with our dogs. I wouldn't even consider canicross as I have no more energy left and neither does David who already works a 14 hour day and travels to the USA a lot, honestly. We are the least sporty people you are ever likely to meet ;D We have put all the toys away so he has NO free access to them, but I do strongly feel we are never going to fix this boy it's too late. We have done everything that and more that we have been advised to do but it's just not really happening. Anyway, we have been here before a few times now and I am sure you must all be sick to death of it and it always ends up with the same outcome, we get down and frustrated and Charlie is not allowed to be a dog :'( Really feel like just letting him off lead and hope for the bestwith the recall we do have that's how fed up we are. Thanks for everyones input I appreciate it.
Re: Why is this so difficult? Chin up Helen, you know that you have made huge progress! As I say, try walking them both together on the lead at the weekend. OK, it's not perfect, but at least you would all be out walking together..
Re: Why is this so difficult? Julie - training retrieving as a structured exercise DOES work to train your dog to retrieve. However, Helen wants to use it to distract Charlie from hunting and my experience is that it is incredibly easy to put off a dog with a fragile retrieve. And almost impossible to use the retrieve to distract from hunting in a dog with an already fragile retrieve, unless you spend a lot of time putting the dog back in the car/kennel every time he blinks a retrieve to try and create a keen retriever. I think in a multi-pet household this is very difficult to manage. But yes, you are quite right, training as an exercise can create a retriever but I think with Charlie it is unlikely he is ever likely to be passionate enough about it to deter him from hunting - finding another game that he adores may be a different and easier answer. Helen - I know you said David can now recall Charlie from stationary rabbits, just not bolting ones. I don't know if there are any gundog trainers around you who would help you with him in a rabbit pen? And letting go of the long line in a safe area and letting it trail might be a good idea and see what his recall is like now if he does chase something - you might be surprised.......
Re: Why is this so difficult? Hi Helen I can't add much to the advice already given but perhaps I can give you a bit of hope. When I joined the forum one of my first questions was how to get scout interested in retrieving. He'd do a couple then get bored and wander off. Scout is now a retriever holic. Well nearly. I can use a ball and the suggestion of a retrieve to get his attention from most things now. I did pretty much what you are already doing. Kept retrieves to a minimum and mixed other things into our training. Eventually it clicked but we still only do a few at a time. I know it's sole destroying feeling like your not getting anywhere but you will. It will just happen. I think lochans suggestion is a good idea. Try something different. Take your focus off retrieving just give him the odd one. While your not watching he might just get the idea. Helen take your dogs and OH for a walk altogether at the weekend. Hattie won't come to any harm staying on the lead for once. It could be a new weekend routine. She can have off lead walks with you in the week. Go and enjoy yourselves and the things you can do together don't worry about what you can't. (sorry didn't mean to sound bossy ) Jen
Re: Why is this so difficult? [quote author=Lochan link=topic=4349.msg52667#msg52667 date=1391697290] Helen - I know you said David can now recall Charlie from stationary rabbits, just not bolting ones. I don't know if there are any gundog trainers around you who would help you with him in a rabbit pen? And letting go of the long line in a safe area and letting it trail might be a good idea and see what his recall is like now if he does chase something - you might be surprised....... [/quote] I have taken Charlie to two well known gundog trainers and they both wanted to put him on an E collar, they don't believe he can be helped, so why do David and I think we can :'(
Re: Why is this so difficult? Helen you and David can help Charlie because there is no time limit. You are putting the pressure on yourself. It doesn't matter how long it takes or how good he gets. Charlie is your pet not for working or trailing just for you. Gun dog trainers need to get results something too hard isn't worth the time to some unfortunately. I've had to tell myself that numerous times and reminded myself this morning. Also you and David have already helped just look at the difference in Charlie.
Re: Why is this so difficult? There is a bit of a time limit really, David is pretty knackered walking Charlie in the dark before he heads off on a 1 1/2 hour commute to London and returning at 8.30 pm and continuing to work at home until the wee hours. We have been doing this for nearly 2 1/2 years and I have to say we are pretty tired and fedup. We also have 4 children and one of them has High Functioning Autism so he has his own challenges that need careful management. This is a pretty difficult situation to be in but it is what it is and I am not feeling sorry for myself I promise, maybe just a down day Anyway guys don't waste any more your time on this, we will just get on with it. Thanks x
Re: Why is this so difficult? [quote author=Lochan link=topic=4349.msg52667#msg52667 date=1391697290] training as an exercise can create a retriever but I think with Charlie it is unlikely he is ever likely to be passionate enough about it to deter him from hunting - finding another game that he adores may be a different and easier answer. [/quote] Absolutely agree - it does seem unlikely that retrieving is ever going to be the distraction Helen wants. Helen - I've mentioned the absconding labrador I had as a kid. He sadly spent his life on short and long leads (and was appalling on them for ages, but eventually we got him to be sensible) while the other dogs were off lead. We found ways of coping and living with this - and we loved him, and he had a good life. We did eventually get to a place where, with the whole family involved, we'd let him off lead. But only in massive spaces where we had about 5 miles in every direction before he could get into trouble. That was the middle of the North York moors. It was always an exercise that was fraught and stressful, and I'm not sure that it was less stressful than the other ways we had of getting him exercise (playing games in running tracks and tennis courts mainly).
Re: Why is this so difficult? The main value of retrieving for Charlie, if he can be encouraged to do it, is that it is a way, perhaps the only way, of enabling a dog that needs to run and run, the opportunity to do so under controlled conditions. A dog on a retrieve is running hard, in both directions. He is also under control. Not hunting, not looking for trouble He is also focused on the handler, because the handler is controlling/providing the retrieves. So whilst there is no virtue in teaching a dog with low, or even no desire, to retrieve, to do so, just to please the owner. It is a way of facilitating 'controlled exercise' In Charlie's case, it appears that he does have retrieving instinct, but that this instinct is overpowered by hunting drive, in situations where he expects or desires, to be able to hunt. This is very common in hunting dogs, and can often be overcome with judicious management. Whether or not it can be overcome in Helens case, remains to be seen. But it is an option for Helen to consider.
Re: Why is this so difficult? No help from me either I am afraid. Just an observation - 6-7.30am around about me is the worst possible time for fresh scents and smells, lolloping rabbits and absconding labradors : Pushing into second position the dusk deer run {{hugs}} from us too.
Re: Why is this so difficult? Very interested but slightly confused by advice that a keen hunter gets to hunt as a reward for retrieving...if brodick retrieves, then gets to hunt pheasants as a reward, is that not reinforcing his view that hunting is better than retrieving? And is this only when you are able to control the hunting, so quartering with sitting to flush etc? Just trying to work out how this applies to managing a 'pet dog' hunter....
Re: Why is this so difficult? [quote author=debsie link=topic=4349.msg52741#msg52741 date=1391724262] Very interested but slightly confused by advice that a keen hunter gets to hunt as a reward for retrieving...if brodick retrieves, then gets to hunt pheasants as a reward, is that not reinforcing his view that hunting is better than retrieving? And is this only when you are able to control the hunting, so quartering with sitting to flush etc? Just trying to work out how this applies to managing a 'pet dog' hunter.... [/quote] I use hunting as a reward for Murffi. Unlike my other dogs he is not an avid retriever, hunting is his sole passion. But you can only use it properly if your turn whistle, stop whistle and recall whistle are all in place. Chasing pheasants is not part of the deal.
Re: Why is this so difficult? Heidrun - you clicker trained Muffi's retrieve. Is retrieving now part of Muffi's management - in terms of stopping him hunting, as Helen wants to use retrieving for Charlie - or do you use other techniques (the strong whistle commands you mention)?
Re: Why is this so difficult? I'm just peeping in with a suggestion similar to Julie's in terms of on-lead walks. I guess, looking at it from the end result, what you want is for you and David to go on peaceful, stress-free walks together with both your dogs, right? Okay, so I know this is radical, but why does Charlie have to be off lead if it only causes frustration and worry? Can you try training the other behaviour you want, ie walking nicely on lead while Hattie is off lead? Or, have walks with all of you, both dogs on lead, and then the occasional one for Hattie off lead? Or daily off lead walks for Hattie if that's what has to happen, but maybe your kids can help with that? I don't know how to explain this properly, I hope I don't sound bossy or rude about this. I think perhaps there is a bit of a cultural difference? I mean, here, dogs get walks on lead. Mainly. There are off leash places that people can take their dogs for walks, and there are people who will go the "extra mile" so to speak, and take their dogs to the countryside where they can have a run. I would be one of those people, I would definitely try to get my dogs out for an off lead walk a couple times a week, for sure. But daily? No. I've said this before, but right now Simba ONLY has on lead walks. And even when we get to the stage (hopefully!! ) that we can have off lead walks, still, the majority of his walks will be on lead. AND if we can't get a good recall from him after a good effort on our part, then he will only have on lead walks. We fortunately have a dog park in town now where I can take him to do some running around off lead and hopefully play with other dogs. And honestly I would not beat myself up about it if that was the only off lead opportunities he got. You do the best you can with what you have, right? I don't know if this helps or not. I just feel so badly for you, Helen, with all the work you have put in and the frustration it causes you. I hope you can come to some kind of resolution about all this that will alleviate some of the struggles you all have been experiencing. Sending hugs and a hot cuppa your way.....
Re: Why is this so difficult? Julie thats exactly the question I was going to ask Heidrun next! And so for Helen ( and for owners of other hunt driven dogs yes brods thats you) is the issue that you can never eredicate desire to hunt but you can harness that desire and train them to hunt under strict rules - so turn when I say, stop when I say, and right you arent legging it off after you've flushed that pheasant, you now sit as your job is done ( ie you've flushed it good job but you dont chase it, like beating on a shoot). So, while retrieving is important for these guys mastering whistle commands which would let them hunt but strictly under control is the biggie...and is that possible with all dogs even the most hunt driven like Charlie? I say this as someone who has recently had to fling herself onto the ground while tring to hold back a certain black labrador who had got the scent of a pheasant and was desparate to hunt/ chase....as I lay in the mud and brodick barked and barked in frustration I was yet again struck by the intensity of that hunting drive and charlie's sounds right up there.....
Re: Why is this so difficult? [quote author=JulieT link=topic=4349.msg52757#msg52757 date=1391729193] Heidrun - you clicker trained Muffi's retrieve. Is retrieving now part of Muffi's management - in terms of stopping him hunting, as Helen wants to use retrieving for Charlie - or do you use other techniques (the strong whistle commands you mention)? [/quote] Julie, I don't stop Murffi hunting. Hunting is his job! I'll get back to your question later. Just off to take Alice to the vets. She is being spayed today.
Re: Why is this so difficult? [quote author=debsie link=topic=4349.msg52768#msg52768 date=1391747896] Julie thats exactly the question I was going to ask Heidrun next! And so for Helen ( and for owners of other hunt driven dogs yes brods thats you) is the issue that you can never eredicate desire to hunt but you can harness that desire and train them to hunt under strict rules - so turn when I say, stop when I say, and right you arent legging it off after you've flushed that pheasant, you now sit as your job is done ( ie you've flushed it good job but you dont chase it, like beating on a shoot). So, while retrieving is important for these guys mastering whistle commands which would let them hunt but strictly under control is the biggie...and is that possible with all dogs even the most hunt driven like Charlie? I say this as someone who has recently had to fling herself onto the ground while tring to hold back a certain black labrador who had got the scent of a pheasant and was desparate to hunt/ chase....as I lay in the mud and brodick barked and barked in frustration I was yet again struck by the intensity of that hunting drive and charlie's sounds right up there..... [/quote] Debsie, you have pretty much hit the nail on the head. Control is everything with a hunt driven dog. They way I trained Murffi will probably seem far too restrictive for most of you. I do not take him for a walk, take the lead off and let him run around - that is free hunting. I taught him the frame work of controlled hunting, which involves hunting close in front of me from side to side, turning when I turn or when he hears the turn whistle, stopping when I stop and raise my hand or when he hears the stop whistle, and of course recalling when her hears the recall whistle. He is now so conditioned to this framework that he doesn't really know what to do with himself if I simply take the lead off and then not hunt with him as a team by directing him and talking to him through my whistle. So even now in the closed season I exercise Murffi as if we were out in the beating line. I find an area with a bit of cover and hunt him through and then walk him to heel again. I realise that seems too extreme for most of you but for a dog like Murffi I don't see any other way. I don't really know how to advise Helen or Debsie, who want to take their hunt driven dogs out on walks where they can free run. Sorry, I wish I had the answer, but I haven't. :-\ Julie, yes, Murffi has learned to retrieve through clicker training but it will never be the thing he craves most in life which is to hunt. All of my other dogs are very nicely balanced, they enjoy retrieving just as much as hunting, which makes life easy but Murffi requires different management.
