Re: Woods or Open Ground? So you are offended, Helen. And I take it offended by my post. I intended to say – no, actually, what I did say – was: you are not alone, and recommended a book that might be of some assistance to you. You seem to have taken offence at this – why, I wonder? It seems that a) you are offended at the suggestion anyone else might have faced what you have with Charlie or approached your level of success. That’s not reasonable. There are clearly loads of people that have faced the same problem – I lived with and managed an absconding Labrador for 15 years – and the classes I go to have their fair share of similar problems with hunting hounds. Bertie, bless him, has been on a long line for 4 years – and I have as much respect for his owner as for you. Just because others have put in the same heroic efforts as you, and even might have some experience to contribute that you might learn from, does not diminish your efforts. And then b) you seem to suggest that the forum has a “duty” to offer you advice, and to recommend a book is offensive. That’s not reasonable either. This is a free resource made up of individuals who spend time in this part of the internet because it is (mostly) pleasant and enjoyable. There is no obligation involved – not by the individuals contributing anyway. The suggestion that to recommend a book is offensive is just beyond my understanding. It's not reasonable to expect a free internet forum to provide all your training advice from top to bottom.
Re: Woods or Open Ground? Thank you ladies. Heidrun I know you understand the difficulties as you have trained Murffi and I really appreciate your thoughts. Charlie is more concerned about where we are now than he used to be, so 5 minutes he wants to be back to us. The whole quartering training scares me wittless I don't mind admitting it and I don't think I am upto it. If that's what you mean by no free running? Julie, I am not offended just a bit upset. I do not see in your post the recommendation of a book? I am not offended in any way that anyone else has faced what we have, infact I feel very sorry for them if they have. I certainly do not see myself as heroic in any way shape or form and gladly take advice from anyone that has experienced these problems. David and I simply do what we have to do for Charlie as responsible dog owners and we love Charlie. I said that I felt that the gun dog jargon could be explained in clearer terms so that all of us could understand and I can assure you I am not alone in that respect. I most definitely do not expect anyone to provide all my training advice top to bottom, I read a lot to try and understand as much as I can, I do not rely 100% on this forum. I simply stated a point and you feel that's not reasonable which is beyond my understanding. I was asking for some help nothing else and in some small way I hope I do the same for other members. I always appreciate everything that is suggested to help me train Charlie and I always say thank you. I never have or ever will expect anything from anyone. Maybe you could tell me how you lived with and managed your absconding dog for so many years which might help me? I have total respect for anyone that has managed this difficult issue Although I would like to add I don't really see Charlie as an absconder any more just a "ranger" Thanks as always for all your thoughts everyone. xx
Re: Woods or Open Ground? [quote author=Karen link=topic=8400.msg118803#msg118803 date=1413916159] Well Helen, you've made great strides so far, and a year ago I'm sure you never thought you'd be able to go for a walk in the woods with Charlie off the lead... I would make the most of that, and maybe put him on the long lead when you go to open spaces. [/quote] This is how I'd approach it. I'd rest on my laurels. Sometimes 'near enough is good enough'. You've come so far, when you look back your stating point is barely a speck on the horizon (unlike Charlie who now comes back to you!). I would just enjoy Charlie as he is and not put pressure on yourselves over it
Re: Woods or Open Ground? That is exactly my thoughts Oberon. Helen, you have come such a long way with Charlie. I suppose I started off with dogs a bit like Charlie and just got used to it, whereas you started off with Hattie and probably expected Charlie to be the same. He is different, but I think you have now got to a stage which you can live with and respect that he isn't a close walking dog which is due to the type of dog he is.
Re: Woods or Open Ground? Ah Helen...I remember when I first joined the Forum,Charlie was a major handful then not just the minor handful he is now and I remember being full of admiration and I am still now....I remember you being so whistful wondering would he ever be the dog you envisaged,ie family walks with Hattie staying close.....and feeling a bit down because you never thought he would......I understand this in part.Dexter is my 4 legged world, we love him to bits but the last few months I've been doing a little bit of grieving for the dog I visualized and coming to terms with the dog I have.....Dexter is a credit to his breeding,he is exactly what a working dog should be but he's a blummin handful as a pet and sometimes it feels he has given me as many heart attack moments as pleasure moments : All I would say is enjoy the things Charlie can do......walk in the woods and the areas you feel he is safe and you are relaxed and comfortable.....and if your walk breaks into open ground and you aren't happy,pop him on the lead.The only way you will probably become happy is working and training in this area....and I totally understand how that can feel like a mountain to climb ( Er us and deer now,it's taken 10 years from me I'm sure!) I've stopped walking alone at the nature reserve as we are too quiet and the chances of us encountering a herd are high....so I only walk with friends and other dogs....if Dexter 'points ' ( I'm sure he's a HPR throw back somewhere :) he's straight on the lead ,it's the only choice I have whilst I haven't got control.and that's ok,it's not the walk I want,but I'm accepting that is how it is until I get control ( if I can ) Don't be put off by the gun dog terms .....I can read them sometimes and think ,'Wow,I don't even understand what that means ,nevermind try and train it ' ;D but when you read about it and break it down ,you can think about as playing with Charlie ( sorry gun dog folks ,you know I'm not being disrespectful ) My retrieving is 'fetch' and our version of blinds is 'find it' ;D ;D ;D Don't lose heart,Charlie isn't fully trained yet, you can choose to continue and you know everyone will help you and cheer you on......or you can stop at this point and find ways to enjoy walks with the skills you have .... Xxx
Re: Woods or Open Ground? Helen, I have the utmost respect for all the time you have spent in training Charlie...and look how far you have come! You are far more dedicated than I will ever be, and I don't mind saying so. I guess I have a different outlook on this whole walking thing. To be clear, my previous two dogs were border Collies, which I raised from pups. We went on many, many off lead walks together and I never once had a moment where they ran off from me and never once had one not recall to me. So it was a rude shock to have Simba disappear on me for upwards of half an hour after the training I have done with him on recall. So. What to do? Keep training recall, certainly. But in the meantime I use the long line. He has it dragging after him, and I spend about a third of the walk holding on to it when we get to the "danger" spots where he has run off before. And in my mind, so what? So, I don't have a dog that rambles along with me, never straying far, always recalling at the smallest peep from me. I have the long line which I can use if I need to. It gives me the security I need. In the meantime, while we are walking, I am doing whistle recalls, throwing treats to keep him close, and practicing the odd "sit/stay". And he is getting a more rambly walk then he gets on our lead walks. I guess what I'm saying is that, of course, strive for "more" in your training, but in the meantime, enjoy what you have achieved. I was thinking today about this whole thing on our walk, wondering if we would ever get to the place where the long line is retired. I came to the conclusion that, although I will keep working on it, if we don't get to the place where I feel I can trust him to recall reliably, I'm okay with that. Due to where we live, I spend far more time on walks with Simba on lead than off. And that's just the way it is. I'm going to enjoy whatever walk I can give him! None of this is to say what you should or shouldn't do, it's just trying to give another perspective....
Re: Woods or Open Ground? I conpletely understand how you feel Helen. Owning a hard driven hunter is an ownership of challenge no matter how much we love em! I feel the same way as Angela in that Brodick, like Dexter, is a credit to his breeding, cripes the nose for game on that boy is something else, and he will go anywhere when he is on a scent, brambles, gorse, nothing will stop him when he is hunting. So if he was a real working dog, these attributes would be prized. As a pet dog, these attributes can be a tad challenging and not at all what I had envisaged about walking a labrador, particularly after Cuillin who likes a hunt too, but is less hard wired hunter than brodick and so much easier to manage on a walk. I' ve just adjusted my view of what a 'walk' is about. We to to the beach a lot where we can have those 'walk' , they sound like your Woods. Brods is not hunt focused there he just wants to swim and swim and swim fetching his ball or dummy from the water and his recall is ace. They are the walks where I can just pootle along playing with the pups, drinking coffee, chatting to friends.....on his hill walks he is off lead the vast majority of the time but only because Im constantly interacting with him, and I am like a sophisticated Radar System alert to the slightest rustle or distant pheasant call that could signify Trouble! Like Lisa in areas where I know there is Trouble I have no problem sticking him on a fifty foot line for a bit still, that way I know he is safe and he doesnt bother at all he can still run about. I always carry one in my bag just in case. I love my hunting boy to bits, he is the softest, gentlest, most cuddly, loving boy ever - until shown a pheasant, crikey he can be hard work on a scenty walk, so I'd celebrate your success in the woods with Charlie and hang out there!
Re: Woods or Open Ground? I think this advice about making the most of what you've achieved with charlie is good advice. You've got him to an excellent standard considering where you started. I've been thinking though if you want to train more so you can hopefully get more control you can do it now without as much pressure. As I've said I don't know much about training and harnessing hunting but does Charlie like to follow a scent. My idea would be first train the equivalent of a retrieve marker. I know Charlie isn't much into retrieving as a reward but what about a scented toy/rag. You can but scents from gundog suppliers. Once he has the idea of his 'scent marker' you could then build up your stop whistle and train casting like I am. The reason I've suggested this is if you can train these things when he's in the open you will hopefully be able to control and change his direction. Instead of having to come back to you he can continue to hunt but you are in control. You could drop a scent rag somewhere so he finds his reward. It's just an idea. I don't know if it would work. In theory there's no reason it shouldn't. It's also something that will take time but something new you can start doing with Charlie at home to build your control with no pressure.
Re: Woods or Open Ground? Helen , I really can empathise re Charlie . You are right, as is Heidrun , that taking on a rescue is no easy task , especially when unacceptable behaviour has become the norm for them and we have to try to put it all right . I have gone through this with Millie, in fact I am still going through this and yes, sometimes it is one step forward and then two back and yes, it can be so disheartening at times . I think that sometimes , we have to sit back, reflect on what we have achieved and ask ourselves, honestly , if we really feel able to take it any further, if we are up to it and whats more , is the dog up to it ? For myself , I am just managing what I have got , making the best of it and accepting that she wont ever be the dog that Sam is . This is no reflection on effort put in , just the simple fact that training a hard wired rescue is not like training a puppy . I`m so sorry that you are feeling so upset , but please just cast back Helen to what you were trying to cope with one year ago , you have come such a long way and should be proud x
