Your views on breeding

Discussion in 'Labrador Health' started by pippa@labforumHQ, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. pippa@labforumHQ

    pippa@labforumHQ Administrator

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  2. kateincornwall

    kateincornwall Registered Users

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    Cast my vote earlier, torn between B and D but voted B, mainly because many people will always want a well bred puppy from a responsible ethical breeder .
    I believe in the concept of rescue, but having suffered the distress and heartbreak of rehoming a dog who wasnt ready for the outside world , its not something I would readily enter into again .
     
  3. pippa@labforumHQ

    pippa@labforumHQ Administrator

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    This is quite an interesting article by someone who clearly sees the value in breeding dogs. ;D
     
  4. Karen

    Karen Registered Users

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    I really cannot make my mind up on this one. I do want a second dog, and would take a rescue - but know too many stories where things went badly wrong, so would have to be convinced I could put in the time and effort. Difficult, working full time!

    So - two choices. Either we go for another pup from a responsible breeder, or else (a long-held dream of mine) at some point we go down the breeding route and have a litter of pups of our own, with the aim of keeping one...

    But then - the worry - have the pups gone to the right sort of home??? Our trainer was in a terrible state today, because one of her pups has been returned... The family decided they didn't want a dog after all, and the wife was going to start working full time instead... Poor puppy, but lucky for him they decided this after three days, instead of after three months... He already has a new home lined up, hopefully this time forever.

    But I do think that there is a place for small breeders who just breed one or two litters in their lives. The pups are likely in such a case to be fully integrated into the family, probably they are actually in the house, and so very used to people. The bitch is likely to be a much-loved family pet. Providing the necessary health checks have been done on both mother and father, I don't see why this shouldn't be a good situation.

    Am I talking myself into it? Possibly... ;)
     
  5. kateincornwall

    kateincornwall Registered Users

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    I also think that there is a place for small time breeders Karen . Sams Mums last litter have just gone to new homes , it was her third and last litter as she will be 7 next month . She has used the same sire each time , has all the relevent paperwork re hips, elbows and eyes , pups born into the family home and handled by responsible children when old enough .
    All pups from the three litters have wonderful natures which is equally as important as the physical to me . I cant imagine anything more lovely than having a litter from a really good bitch and keeping one :)
     
  6. pippa@labforumHQ

    pippa@labforumHQ Administrator

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    I have found the responses to the poll very interesting. I thought there would be a lot of people saying 'breeding should be for the betterment of the breed'. This was the mantra that was constantly trotted out a few years ago.

    I too support the 'small' or 'occasional' breeder (with certain provisos). And of course this is how all the more experienced breeders start out. I probably should have put this as an option in the poll.

    My main proviso, after reading everything you can lay your hands on and especially 'the book of the bitch', would be to find a mentor. This could be the breeder of your bitch, or the stud dog owner. But you definitely need a very experienced breeder on the other end of that telephone.

    This article might be of interest Karen.

    I think the things I find the hardest are the mess (it is always worse than you remember) and the difficulty in weeding out time wasters and people that are clearly unsuitable puppy buyers.

    Following on from the poll, I have just posted some more thoughts on adopting a rescue dog
    Pippa
     
  7. kateincornwall

    kateincornwall Registered Users

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    I didnt want to reply on the article Pippa, mainly because it concerns adopting Labradors . However, it touched a nerve with me , we are still terribly upset at returning Poppy to the RSPCA and yet felt that it was our only option , trying to rehome her would have been morally wrong, given her aggression issues .
    Many dogs go into shutdown mode in shelters and only when homed does their true nature show through, when its too late .
    Black Retriever X rescue is one I admire , the fact that all dogs are fostered first is a testement to their ethics . The Blue Cross that I volunteer for also assesses every dog very carefully, matching carefully too but there is always the one who slips through the net .
    I think we all like to harbour the vision of a grateful rescue dog who will love us forever and do as they are bid out of love for their rescuers , we did actually have this very dog many years ago but I think they are a real minority .
     
  8. pippa@labforumHQ

    pippa@labforumHQ Administrator

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    I don't think it matters what breed you have Kate, if you want to comment, go ahead.
    From the emails I get, there are too many people in your position. I don't really have the answers, your decision was heartbreaking but it was the right one.

    I get the impression that this is happening more often, though of course it is difficult to know for sure, because people that have a happy outcome probably don't tend to post on forums or send me emails.

    I do ponder on the fact that we are very reluctant now to euthanase any dog that is not incurably ill. Not so very long ago dogs with aggression or other serious behaviour problems were put to sleep whereas now we tend to try and treat these kinds of problems. Not sure how successful we actually are. :(

    Pippa
     
  9. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    I would have chosen the option that wasn't there ( :)) the small/occasional breeder as they are who I have had my mostly positive experiences with. They have all been breeding to keep a pup for themselves, taken great care with finding sires and done all relevant health checks. As far as I can tell they've generally found homes for their pups easily allowing them to vet potential owners, I know if we hadn't asked the right health questions we wouldn't have been allowed to have Riley.
     
  10. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    I really feel for you Kate, such a difficult time for you all :(

    I would like to think I would take a rescue dog but I see people having such difficulty and I'm not sure that we're experienced enough to manage if they were terribly difficult.
     
  11. charlie

    charlie Registered Users

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    As you all know by now we have had a very tough time with Charlie and have been at the stage of giving up. I feel so strongly that the rescue centres are not placing the right dogs with the right families, and in our case actually being dishonest about the dog. I know the rescue centres are bursting at the seams but this is not an excuse to place dogs with families who ultimately cannot cope and then having to make the heartbreaking decision to return the dog. Due to our experience we would never rescue a dog again. We love Charlie and have worked endlessly to sort his recall, lead work, anxiety and general hooligan behaviour etc. out. We have climbed a very high mountain over the last 18 months and still have more to climb if we ever make it at all. We have asked ourselves maybe we are wrong to keep Charlie as we know we are not experienced in dealing with these issues and he would be better off placed with an owner who could deal with him. Very difficult.

    Having said that, I know people that have rescued dogs and they have been wonderful family dogs.

    Helen x
     
  12. Karen

    Karen Registered Users

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    [quote author=editor link=topic=1340.msg8782#msg8782 date=1364146382]

    This article might be of interest Karen.

    I think the things I find the hardest are the mess (it is always worse than you remember) and the difficulty in weeding out time wasters and people that are clearly unsuitable puppy buyers.

    Pippa
    [/quote]

    Many thanks, I had read this article before, but it is food for thought indeed! Karen
     
  13. kateincornwall

    kateincornwall Registered Users

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    [quote author=charlie link=topic=1340.msg8795#msg8795 date=1364157470]
    As you all know by now we have had a very tough time with Charlie and have been at the stage of giving up. I feel so strongly that the rescue centres are not placing the right dogs with the right families, and in our case actually being dishonest about the dog. I know the rescue centres are bursting at the seams but this is not an excuse to place dogs with families who ultimately cannot cope and then having to make the heartbreaking decision to return the dog. Due to our experience we would never rescue a dog again. We love Charlie and have worked endlessly to sort his recall, lead work, anxiety and general hooligan behaviour etc. out. We have climbed a very high mountain over the last 18 months and still have more to climb if we ever make it at all. We have asked ourselves maybe we are wrong to keep Charlie as we know we are not experienced in dealing with these issues and he would be better off placed with an owner who could deal with him. Very difficult.

    Having said that, I know people that have rescued dogs and they have been wonderful family dogs.

    Helen x
    [/quote]

    The effort you have put in is fantastic Helen, and the determination to do your absolute best for Charlie, you should be very proud of yourselves for this . Some of these rescues have a lot to answer to, keep your chin up x
     
  14. Jules

    Jules Registered Users

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    [quote author=editor link=topic=1340.msg8787#msg8787 date=1364150802]
    I do ponder on the fact that we are very reluctant now to euthanase any dog that is not incurably ill. Not so very long ago dogs with aggression or other serious behaviour problems were put to sleep whereas now we tend to try and treat these kinds of problems.
    [/quote]

    My view isn't one which will make me popular, but it's my opinion none the less.

    I don't think there is any place in Rescue for dogs with Aggression or serious behaviour issues for whatever the reason. Quite simply all rescues are overrun with dogs and many thousands are destroyed each year who have no problems at all, simply because there is nowhere for them to go. Taking out the emotions and using common sense, I would say it is better to PTS the aggressive/behaviour problem dogs and give those places to the dogs who can easily be rehomed without the need for rehabilitation. All the time and money spent on trying to put right a problem dog could instead be thrown into the dogs which would fit into most families lives.

    At the moment there are far too many aggressive dogs going through rescue and being placed with average dog owners, who have no idea how to handle the dog's problems. Using the term "Oh he's a Rescue" seems to be the stock phrase for anyone around here who has a dog with an aggression problem. Whether this is true or whether this is just a made up excuse, who knows, but it just seems ridiculous to me that these people could have had one of the many friendly dogs who were destroyed due to lack of rescue space, instead.

    It also irks me when there are rescues putting forward sob stories of dogs with terrible illnesses, conditions, deformities and then asking the general public for money to help put this one dog right. I know I probably sound like a heartless cow, but to me it makes SO much more sense to try to save MORE dogs than to save just the one, especially when it wasn't right in the first place.

    Too many perfectly friendly, perfectly healthy dogs are destroyed every day, so it makes sense to me to prioritise.
     
  15. drjs@5

    drjs@5 Registered Users

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    [quote author=Jules link=topic=1340.msg8818#msg8818 date=1364222375]
    All the time and money spent on trying to put right a problem dog could instead be thrown into the dogs which would fit into most families lives..............
    ...... it makes sense to me to prioritise.
    [/quote]
    I don't want to switch this to something political, but if you swiched the word dog for young person, these are the exact same sentiments I recently heard from a rather didillusioned careers adviser.
    Those that make the most noise, get the most time and attention spent on them to the detriment of the "normal" dogs/young people.
    I have to say, I think you make a very good point here, sad though it may be for some people to accept.
    Back to the old "quality of life is better than quantity of life" argument. :(

    jac
     
  16. pippa@labforumHQ

    pippa@labforumHQ Administrator

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    I am in complete agreement Jules, but I feel sure that we are very much in a minority. You only have to read the comments on news items to realise that many people now have a 'life at any cost' attitude towards animals. They accept that disability (mental or physical) or sickness is an inevitable part of some animals' lives and do not see euthanasia as an option.

    I have read two articles recently about completely different dogs that have no front legs. The owners were almost universally applauded for keeping them alive and teaching them to walk on their hind legs. Anyone suggesting that it would have been a kindness to put the poor things to sleep was descended on by a baying mob.

    To me, keeping a dog alive that is perpetually and irreversibly fearful (which is the most common cause of aggression) is as cruel as prolonging the life of a severely disabled animal.

    I imagine rescue centres are under huge pressure to save every soul that comes through the gates and I would not want to be in their shoes.

    But I do question the morality of homing some of these very challenging dogs with ordinary families, whose lives are then turned upside down for months or even years as they desperately try to help the dog without destroying their own lives in the process.

    I have no idea what the answer is though.

    Incidentally Jules, are there a lot of friendly dogs destroyed in the UK? I had assumed that most of our shelters had a 'no kill' policy

    Pippa
     
  17. kateincornwall

    kateincornwall Registered Users

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    I couldnt agree more with both you and Jules, especially as we have recently been " victims " of taking in a dog who suffers dreadful and distressing nervous and fearful aggression .
    The actual act of returning her was so painful and yet a relief at the same time , if that makes sense , and barely a night goes by that I dont wake and wonder what is happening to her . I torture myself by looking at the shelter website every day, praying that she isnt being shown as ready for rehoming because to be honest , I dont think she will ever be ready , her fear was too deep routed . I just knew that if we had kept her , we ran a massive risk to the safety of my family , others people too and also that she would have ruined our lives completely including dear Sams .
    It is an emotive subject, but where any aggression is involved , I also think that these poor souls would be far better off being euthanised with no attempt being made to rehabilitate .
    I also worry terribly about the vast number of very small rescues being set up by very well meaning but often inexperienced people who will stop at nothing to save a dog, regardless of any major problems the dog may have .
    With regards to the dogs being taught to walk on hind legs , there is a lady in our village who now pushes her dog around in a pram , the poor thing cant walk more than a couple of steps due to very severe arthritis , she thinks she is being kind to her dog :(
     
  18. Jules

    Jules Registered Users

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    [quote author=editor link=topic=1340.msg8820#msg8820 date=1364231099]
    Incidentally Jules, are there a lot of friendly dogs destroyed in the UK? I had assumed that most of our shelters had a 'no kill' policy
    [/quote]

    The problem is getting dogs a rescue space. Many are destroyed before they even reach rescue, as there just isn't the space for them. Most Local Authority pounds will only hold a dog for 7 days and then it's time is up, regardless of temperament, breed, age or health. As for No Kill rescues, there are some about, Dogs Trust being the biggy, but then they tend to cherry pick the dogs going in and of course reject the ones with major problems.

    As for figures, there are no actual recorded figures for ALL dogs destroyed, simply because there are so many different parties involved, and of course many others who would never admit to killing unwanted dogs.

    Dogs trust submitted a report of 118k unwanted dogs destroyed in 2012....to their knowledge. However, this figure doesn't include the dogs destroyed by the Local Authorities (unclaimed strays mostly), the ex breeding dogs killed by Puppy Farmers and the many thousands of Greyhounds which are despatched and hidden when they no good at winning races. So if you add those in, them being the dogs which couldn't find a rescue place for one reason or another, the figure is probably more likely to be in excess of 175k....probably nearer 200k dogs destroyed, and that was last year alone. :( Of course many of these probably had wonderful temperaments, but no one is ever likely to find out if they don't make it to rescue, are they.

    And yes there's too many "Probablys" in that last paragraph...but that's life. Or death in this case.
     
  19. David

    David Registered Users

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    I voted B but it didn't quite fit what I really think. I think breeders should also be looking to improve the breed ie a bit og one of the other options. Don't know enough about the subject to comment further really.
     
  20. Oberon

    Oberon Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Re: Your views on breeding

    [quote author=David link=topic=1340.msg8823#msg8823 date=1364237501]
    I voted B but it didn't quite fit what I really think. I think breeders should also be looking to improve the breed ie a bit og one of the other options[/quote]
    Same here.

    I agree that a dog with major behavioural problems or an aggressive dog, whether the cause of the aggression is fear or otherwise, should never be re-homed. Especially one that could escape a yard.

    Although our boy Obi was rehomed to us we got him privately, straight from his first family, rather than through a rescue organisation. We first briefly dallied with a Lab rescue organisation, expecting that there would be a careful process of matching us with a suitable dog. The selection process turned out to be more like 'You want a dog. This is a dog'. So we just made a generous donation and looked elsewhere. I guess that rescue orgs are swamped with dogs and are terribly understaffed and really want to move dogs on to make way for the next wave. :(
     

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