Re: zig zagging! on lead i think the secret of heel work is to make it fun for the dog. Goldie walks to heel perfectly well as this was drummed into her before i got her however i still do short bursts of heelwork training on walks. Walk fast-sit-walk fast-sit-walk fast...click, treat. Lots of high pitched encouragement and praise, I use "go play" as a release command to say "do your own thing" so ill maybe do a few short burts of heelwork then let her go for 5 mins and then recall her and start again. It keeps it fun and interesting
Re: zig zagging! on lead I do that too, Lisa - suddenly we might do a drop or a stand or even a trick, with lots of happy praise and a treat. Keeps their ears open With giving treats for loose lead walking or heeling - I only give treats for 'good behaviour' not for 'stopping bad behaviour'. Bad behaviour means pulling. If there is pulling, we stop. We proceed when the lead goes loose - that's the reward for stopping pulling, being able to keep walking. I don't call Obi to me to stop him pulling. That can set up a cycle of 'pull human's arm off, go back to human for treat, pull human's arm off, go back to human for a treat'. Treats are only given as a reward for responding to a cue (e.g. 'wait', 'heel', 'walking') or for voluntary good behaviour (e.g. walking calmly while cyclist whizzes past). Hope that makes sense
Re: zig zagging! on lead Right I'm in a muddle...we are still on the lethal lead( lethal for me!) I tried something different today..drive to walking area( area where he has to be on a lead but I sneak him off when the coast is clear )put him on on lead,great excitement,scuffling and pulling to get into the gate of the park....deep breath,the 'walk' starts....he pulled,arm wrenched off,I stopped,when he let the lead go loose and moved towards me,I clicked and treated....when he got that I started saying here( ive previously been saying heel.....only something Pippa wrote yesterday made me realise.....another mistake Angela! he came towards me,with no distractions we got that too ,absolutely no distance covered though.....park was quiet so he got a little run off then,game of hide and seek.Back on the lead,people and other dogs started arriving....back to square one,same process as described ,basically the horrible sequence of events you have written Rachael.... I can't see how I can get to what you describe?Do you just intermittently treat Obi as he's walking along nicely ,how does he know he's getting a treat for nice walking?Am I being thick.....sorry if I am. I've been so focused on his recall and the harness has masked all this pulling business....I was going back out to my little park now to practice what I'd done this morning but I am rewarding bad behaviors aaaagh! Roll on getting back on the harness.....its not right but it works :-[
Re: zig zagging! on lead Yes, I do just randomly treat for good loose lead walking. I don't even really mark the behaviour. It's just creating an association between walking on a loose lead and good things happening. The consequences that you have control over are also powerful training tools: - Stopping dead when pulling happens is one. You are removing something the dog wants (moving forward) as a consquence of it doing something you don't want, hopefully to reduce that unwanted behaviour. - Continuing to walk when the lead is loose again. You are delivering something the dog wants as a consquence of it doing something you want, hopefully to increase the wanted behaviour. I am really tough on pulling. If pulling happens, we stop or turn around and move away from where he wants to go. I simply refuse to be pulled anywhere. If it takes half an hour to go 20 metres, then so be it. I proactively train loose lead walking in a non distracting environment and then move into gradually more challenging environments. You have to train what you want, so for that I use the clicker and put it on cue (our cue is "walking"). But as I mentioned I do in it a gradual way in an easy environment so the dog won't fail. As with proofing a recall, I don't ask for the behaviour unless I think I'll get it so you just have to take small steps. If we do come across a distraction that I think he needs help with (e.g. passing dog) we put some distance between us and the distraction so it's not overwhelming and I lure him with a treat, get him to sit and focus on me (delivering treats) or heel (delivering treats) till it passes or we pass it. I want to get to the point where, when Obi sees another dog (for example) he will look at me for his treat, not look at the other dog. We are at that point, provided the distraction dog is not too close. If you do need to call your dog back from pulling then don't immediately give a treat. Be happy and excited but ask for a sit, a drop and a trick. Treat these things. At least that creates a bit of a circuit breaker and makes the 'pull, get treat, pull, get treat' cycle less firmly established.
Re: zig zagging! on lead I shouldn't be allowed to be in charge of a dog......just done 20 minutes in the park realised that Here.....sounds a lot like Heel......so changed Here to Back( as there is absolutely no danger we will ever be needing that for a command of what Heidrun trains )So Heel by my left leg ( not bothered about his position as long as he is there)is ok with constant verbal cues to remind him every 10 steps and intermittent treat....the minute I stop saying Heel...he's off like a rocket( this is when I usually change his lead back over onto his harness so I don't usually have the full pull launch)....He pulls ,I stop,then Instead of reacting to correct I observed,he turns around comes a few steps back,I literally take one step and he launches again.I watched this for a few minutes and realised that fundamentally we are taking ONE step at a time. As soon as I move forward he pulls.To follow the theory of stop start or stop change direction correctly we are going to have no walks until he gets it,we won't get anywhere...... so Ive gone back to the click and treat I was doing this morning only changing the command of Here,to Back.......and with chicken.....a lot of chicken .....and we made loose lead progress in a reasonably presentable fashion.A woman actually laughed at me this morning as I had my feet planted in the sand,leaning backwards,wittily commenting ,'oh who's taking who for a walk ?'ha ha ha,totally hilarious,NOT! The biggest reason I gave in to the harness on the advice of my Mum was I was so worried about his neck,it must be terrible for him,it makes me feel sick how much he pulls himself ! Another point that I know you will all roll your eyes at ..especially Kate is ......Chris insists on a retractable lead( we've nearly had fisticuffs over it).......so I'm sabotaged right away.He's seen how miserable I've been the last couple of days over it so I'm going to sit down and talk to him about it tonight and over the weekend Dexter is going to get driven to his walks in the Desert where he can be off the lead and I can relax for the whole period of excercise and we will practice and practice and practice lead walking in the park.I just don't think I can do it your way Rachael and that makes me feel like a loser because I'm rewarding bad behavior...... FYI everybody the ADTA launch date has been considerably postponed!
Re: zig zagging! on lead Sorry Rachael we were typing at the same time,he's all snugged up on his bed now and I have to go out for a bit so Ill have a good read through what you have said and try and create a system that works for us based on good practice.Im not impatient to correct it,i will perservere,it's just something that's flared up moree because I'm off the harness .we have such limited free run excercise options Ive got to be able to get him out. I'm full of cold today,and was awake loads all night so I'm not myself today which is the wrong way out to be training a dog,bless him,we are going to right today off as one of those days and start again tomorrow ;D
Re: zig zagging! on lead Meant to say Thankyou once again for taking the time to sit down and write back,really appreciated x
Re: zig zagging! on lead Just do it the way that seems to work best - there is more than one way to skin a cat (or train a Labrador) and what I have described is only the method I have come to use - it's certainly a long way from being gospel Don't worry if you have to put a whole chicken in front of his face to get him to pay attention to you and walk on a loose lead in public - just do it if it means you get the right behaviour even if you are effectively buying his attention with chicken in your hand. You just want to get the behaviour you are after so you can mark and reinforce it. Do also establish and practice walking on a loose lead in a relatively less exciting environment (like, just around the house and yard) as a 'cued behaviour' (not a lured behaviour where he just follows food with his nose). Your ultimate aim is to be able to cue and reward loose lead walking in most places. Don't lose heart - he will get there! He is young and enthusiastic and the world is exciting. But with your guidance he will eventually become a pleasure to walk. Don't worry if the steps are small. Would be a good plan to have a chat about the retractable lead too - I do reckon that they encourage pulling. They do teach the dog that pulling gets you where you want to go (even if they don't have to pull as hard as they do on a fixed lead). We're all gunning for you!!!
Re: zig zagging! on lead On the retractable lead, which lots of people hate, we use one but only with a harness and only when Riley needs to be attached but have some freedom. When his recall was terrible at about 12 months old he spent weeks on it. My dad walks him in one as he's still not sure of Riley's recall and he would hate to lose my dog and when he had kennel cough and we needed to make sure he didn't greet any other dogs he went on. I think they have their place but in general I would say they're not great for achieving a nice loose lead walk(lock it off as often as possible to help you on that so its not under tension) Now Riley walks better it doesn't seem to matter if he's on a retractable or not. I would also always suggest you get a tape one rather than a thin line as the thin line can cause injury more easily. Don't worry you'll get there
Re: zig zagging! on lead I must be an evil witch on a walk! Since I have been able to walk him I have walked him to heel or tried. And if his shoulders are past me knee I stop and wait for him to get bck in position! Needless to say it takes a LONG time to get anywhere! Maby I should relax on walks a bit and let his shoulders be past my legs but not his hips?
Re: zig zagging! on lead NPM, if you want to keep walking as a pretty formal activity then I'd be going for being more level with your leg rather than ahead of you. The further forward he is, the less of you (or any hand signals you give) he will see (and pay attention to). I would stick to what you have started and be consistent. Your patience at this stage will pay off later!
Re: zig zagging! on lead NPM,I think Rachael have wise words earlier when I was having a bit of a meltdown.Decide what behaviour you want and train for it....If thats how you want it and its working,fantastic.I don't want Dexter on heel all the time,I just want him by my left side ambling along at points on our walk safely and tidily when he has to be on the lead,and a proper heel when I ask for it if there's a reason to keep him close by.Circumstances dictate that he has to be on a lead more than most of your dogs so it would be nice for it to be pleasant ;D....I'm bathing his underarm loads with salt water to speed the healing process.....get back to the harness!i know it's a cheat though
Re: zig zagging! on lead Angela, so much sympathy – it’s really difficult. I am also trying to get my head round what I’m supposed to be doing, and work out a strategy. I thought I was doing ok, but I’m still making mistakes. But it’s so much harder for you, needing to be on lead so much. I have really just stopped using a lead until I can get him to “walk” without one. Maybe Dexter just isn’t going to get the “no pull” thing with the stopping/changing direction technique? It might be fine in theory, but if for practical real life reasons (eg your husband isn’t playing, Dexter just can’t get it, actually for inexperienced people with busy lives it’s impossible to be 100% consistent - dunno), then maybe it’s just not going to work for you, and there’ll have to be another way. On the OH thing. I’m just letting it go. I’m zipping up (that was your tip to me!), and letting him do what he wants, and concentrating on training Charlie my way when I’ve got him. I honestly don’t think the dog is going to be totally ruined because we do things slightly different ways – and my marriage is more likely to survive puppyhood! We’ll all get there with the lead walking – in the meantime, maybe we should just buy roller blades and get the benefit of a strong dog that pulls! We can all whizz around powered by lab engines!
Re: zig zagging! on lead [quote author=JulieT link=topic=1949.msg16237#msg16237 date=1373536634] On the OH thing. I’m just letting it go. I’m zipping up (that was your tip to me!), and letting him do what he wants, and concentrating on training Charlie my way when I’ve got him. I honestly don’t think the dog is going to be totally ruined because we do things slightly different ways – and my marriage is more likely to survive puppyhood! [/quote] my husband reckons riley treats him like the substitute teacher so I think they will behave differently for each of you
Re: zig zagging! on lead My hubby usually asks Obi to 'come' at exactly the moment when his attention is fimly elsewhere, e.g. he's running towards a new doggie friend or is about to jump into the lake or has just found the most excellent, pungently dead thing to gnaw on or roll in (consequence = Obi often ignores hubby). I try to explain that "it's like you've just reached a critical moment in 'Assassin's Creed 5' and the phone rings. You are the phone ringing".
Re: zig zagging! on lead Hah - and no doubt Obi copes just fine! My OH uses the command "chup chup Charlie" for everything - leave a smelly poop, hurry up, slow down, look at me, don't chase the jogger.... He claims it works. Oddly, sometimes it does!
Re: zig zagging! on lead I know grrrrh Julie!I hate that too ..... When I get a bit despondent Chris says,look at all those dogs in the park that are doing xyz...and then look at the owners...don't tell me they are putting in the effort that you are and their dogs aren't doing xyz..( im sorry,but some of them are!)he means well with that ;D,that's his encouragement!Chris is so chilled out and while it drives me mad and I feel like I'm doing a lot of this on my own,he is lovely with Dexter and Its me that has the spare time to have taken the responsibility for Training. I feel much better now,I've had a bit of a couch day to get over this horrible cold and read and read and made notes ;D on Pippa's articles on heel work and not pulling on the lead.I am going right back to the beginning as if Dexter is a new dog.We've worked on her clicker training heel excercise....perfect!And we have practiced Stage one of How to stop your lab pulling on the lead ...perfect.....he always is in the house and garden....it's introducing distractions that's my problem but Im not rushing now,deep breaths and patience. Think I've got a bit overwhelmed and frustrated this week by lack of resources and facilities too,it's got on my nerves! but that's ok,I'll work with what I have got. I've also got to not spend so much time chatting to you guys about all things dog...and use that time to read Pippa's guides more! ;D Whats really worked for me today is making notes....I've broken it down into the bit we want to work on....usually I have the whole topic up and I think I go to fast onto the next which is why we struggle when we leave the house..... I've been really moaning on this thread,sorry blackjack....bet your Jack has been entered passed and been awarded a distinction in an obedience test while I've been wailing on your thread. Don't ever think for a minute I'm moaning about Dexter,I love him and never lose patience with him EVER the poor love being trained by me ;D PMA is reinstated as of NOW !
Re: zig zagging! on lead lead update- - with the slightly longer lead jacks almost stopped zig zagging, hes still pulling but im stopping to stop him, we had more loose lead this morning hes sitting on demand at kerb sides too my aim is to have loose lead all the time, arms dont like being wrenched from sockets! next challenge is meeting other dogs, something im quite aprehensive about :-\
Re: zig zagging! on lead Ok, you guys, everyone has those melt down moments, me included. : Plus I have a cocker who practically lives on the verge of melt down. So, for those occasions when I can't train but need to get somewhere with a dog that is about to self combust I use my special lead. It is basically a rope slip lead but incorporating a figure of eight nose and head halter. When Murffi gets very excited like walking up to the first drive of a shooting day he will pull so hard that he would probably strangulate himself in a normal rope slip lead. And that is with all the hours of training I have put in. . He also dances around like a demented flea twisting the lead tighter and tighter. So, this special lead has also got a metal swivel in the middle which prevents that. The lead is a life saver at times but I have to stress once again it does not and should not replace training. And all of you guys with very young puppies, this is not a lead for you !!! Anyway here is a picture of it. It takes a little while for the dog to get used to the nose halter, but if you teach it properly and gently then they will accept it.
Re: zig zagging! on lead wow - food for thought about a dog that well trained getting so excited - I guess it's his drive to work. I won't touch such a lead with a young pup (was looking up slip leads that Pippa mentioned, but don't even think I'll risk that, sticking with my harness and flat collar regime). Angela though, why do you say a harness is "cheating" - I don't see it that way. Isn't a device (so far a harness) to cope with the pulling when you are not training heel with a collar what we should be doing?
