Figure of eight lead

Discussion in 'Labrador Puppies' started by Jacqueline Mckendrick, Sep 25, 2017.

  1. Jacqueline Mckendrick

    Jacqueline Mckendrick Penny and me

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    Hi folks
    My 17wk lab Penny loves out walking but dragged me all over the place. Tried the harness and collar and lead but it didnt matter. Was advised to get a figure of eight lead ..i hadn't heard of them ..bought one online (it is thick soft cord that goes over her head and loops under her mouth and back over her muzzle) and from the first time out with it on her and it was like night and day. Don't know if they are advocated on here but just thought i would share my experience using it. BTW the very first time i put it on her she rubbed her face along the grass and shook her head but she is getting used to it really quickly now and is no longer pulling x
     
  2. snowbunny

    snowbunny Registered Users

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  3. Emily_BabbelHund

    Emily_BabbelHund Longest on the Forum without an actual dog

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    A figure 8 lead is different from a head collar, right? Same basic concept but different construction? I know people on the Forum aren't big on head collars either, but I don't think they actually tighten around the dog's head?
     
  4. snowbunny

    snowbunny Registered Users

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    Some do - the Gentle Leader, for example. As I said in an earlier post today - it's not so gentle! The figure-8 does both the tightening around the snout and applies pressure to the top of the head. Most headcollars, even the ones that do this, have a limiter, whereas most figure-8s don't, meaning they can tighten to the point of intense pain, especially where you have an unpredictable puppy or lunging dog.
     
  5. Emily_BabbelHund

    Emily_BabbelHund Longest on the Forum without an actual dog

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    Mmm.. I used a GL on Brogan for a while and it had a buckle around the head and a limiter that adjusted under his chin so it couldn't tighten. Maybe they've changed the construction. Not saying I'd recommend even the old version, just that it may have changed as mine was bought in 1997. It was very progressive at the time (vs. choke chains and prongs), now I know the attitudes have moved on.

    Really good to know, thanks for explaining. I saw a lot of dogs in these over the weekend - or I'm assuming that's what it was. Looked like rope looped over the dog's nose.

    For @Jacqueline Mckendrick - who sounds like she is getting help from the figure 8 - what are the best alternatives? I know "training" but as a short-term tool if someone really needs physical help on lead, what's the thinking on what is the best?
     
  6. snowbunny

    snowbunny Registered Users

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    I lifted this from the Gentle Leader website:
    1. Gentle pressure is transferred to the back of the neck, naturally stimulating a relaxation response (the same as when a mother carries a puppy by the scruff of it’s neck).
    2. Gentle pressure around the muzzle of the nose loop naturally gives a relaxation response.
    We'll forget the tosh about it being relaxing, shall we? ;)

    Well, we're talking about a 17-week old puppy here, so most people would be able to easily use their body to stop themselves being pulled around. And then, you're right, it really is about training, about making walking on a loose leash a fun activity. About realising that this is really hard and unnatural for puppies and dogs alike. To stop thinking about getting from A to B and simply play games that revolve around your puppy being with you, at your side, and rewarding her LOADS for being there. Get in the garden and run around, throwing a party every time your puppy is by your side. Go to the park and do the same. Play her favourite games of tug or catch or whatever, all by your side. And, most importantly of all, stop trying to go for a walk on a lead. A puppy doesn't know how to do this naturally, so shouldn't be punished for not understanding how it works. It's up to the handler to teach the puppy that being by their side is the best thing in the world, and then it's just easy, honestly :)
     
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  7. Naya

    Naya Registered Users

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    I made a huge mistake when Harley was younger - I never trained her to walk nicely on lead. I gave up too quickly and just wanted to get to the off lead area so didn't teach her what I wanted. At the age of 2, I went back to basics in terms of training lead walking. I used a head collar to start as I have spinal injuries and just could not have her pulling me. I spent weeks walking up and down my cul de sac, treating her constantly. I then moved to the harness and done the same thing over several weeks and eventually moving onto a flat collar. I then went back to the head collar to walk down the main road for a few weeks and went through the same process with the harness then flat collar. After about 6 months, I could walk from my house to the local shops and back with next to no pulling. I really wish I had done this when she was little and I'm sure I wouldn't if needed the head collar.
    I will be honest and say I do still use the head collar when we go to new places as I honestly can't have her pulling, but this is becoming less and less.
    I don't advocate the head collar, but as a last resort it helped me.
     
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  8. Jacqueline Mckendrick

    Jacqueline Mckendrick Penny and me

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    I have seen many posts on here asking how to stop there puppy pulling ..i know that training is key ..and i think everyone who read it knew what i meant when i said i was dragged about ..i can clearly use my body weight to stop this ..i bought this lead from a reputable seller and would never ever put my puppy in any danger or hurt her in any way..i have never used it as a punishment ..i merely thought it might help both of us get to grips with walking easier on a loose leash ( which it does) i always check that its comfortable and i would presume that if she is wagging her tail then she is happy..i am only using it for short walks and she gets off lead to enjoy the end of the walk when we get to the park area ...thanks for the comments
     
  9. lucky_dog

    lucky_dog Registered Users

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    Unfortunately, we can't guarantee that this is true. I think most dog owners or dog lovers wouldn't want to inflict discomfort on their dogs - but things that seem to work suddenly/overnight are usually only working because they are uncomfortable. It's often very difficult to tell if our dogs are uncomfortable because they can be very good at hiding it, or because if they are outside they are too distracted by everything around them to react to the discomfort - like dogs who pull hard on their collars the entire walk despite the pain they must be in!

    If it were me, I'd use a harness with a double ended lead clipped to the front and back rings. If you hold the lead with one part in each hand, you have very good control of your dog because you can control the front and back of her body. It's not ideal, and the front clip can be annoying at times, but it isn't designed to cause discomfort by tightening around your dog.

    As for the gentle leader, I've never used one myself. I would say that if she is pulling on the gentle leader, and it is tightening around her head, and possibly also pulling her head to the side, then it might not be the best thing for a puppy whose bones are still growing and whose joints are not yet fused.

    Have you started training her to walk nicely on the lead? You could use these short walks to and from the park for training nice walking. If you just start by making eye contact with her and talking to her cheerfully, and giving her a treat every few meters, you'll find that she walks closer to and pays more attention. If she tries to pull on the lead you can either stop and wait for her to look at you or come back to you, or if she takes a while to get the idea and is frustrated by this, just encourage her back to your side and then start walking again. Another helpful strategy, is if you see any distractions, people, dogs, bikes, tell her she's a good girl and give her a treat. Eventually she will learn to look at you when there are distractions, rather than pull towards them.
     
  10. snowbunny

    snowbunny Registered Users

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    As @lucky_dog says, we understand that you're not going out of your way "to punish" your dog. That's not what we mean when we talk about using punishment. Punishment is something that your dog finds unpleasant enough to stop a behaviour, whatever your intentions are. We don't get to dictate what a punishment is, only the dog does that. If the figure-8 works, and I don't doubt that it does, then the only reason it does is because it is causing your puppy enough discomfort to be punishing for her. Again, this isn't a judgement of your motives, or the fact you are trying to do the best thing for you and your puppy, but it's the cold and brutal truth. https://www.thelabradorsite.com/punishment-in-dog-training/

    Where you bought the device doesn't really matter - after all, there are plenty of reputable sellers still selling shock collars. That doesn't make them acceptable, it simply means they make money from them.

    The fact is, we cannot prevent our puppies from lunging from time to time towards something they find exciting. This is my biggest problem with these types of device. Because, when your puppy does lunge, it won't be just discomfort, it will be real pain. And that will mean that the thing she now finds exciting will become associated with something painful. Firstly, I would urge you to think about whether it's worth causing your puppy pain, when what she is doing isn't naughty, it's completely natural, and there are far kinder alternatives in real training - which can also be fun - as mentioned above. Secondly, consider that fallout from using pain as a method of getting what you want; are you prepared to deal with a full-grown dog who is scared of people or dogs approaching, because she associates them with pain, so cowers away or barks aggressively at them, because this is a real danger when using punishment to get behaviours that we want, especially at such a young age when they are learning cause and consequence.

    There are several studies that back this up. Here are just two (emphais mine:(
    http://dogscouts.org/base/tonto-site/uploads/2014/10/620_art_training_methods.pdf
    Because punishment was associated with an increased incidence of problematic behaviours, we conclude that it may present a welfare concern without concurrent benefits in obedience.

    and
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159110000365
    Intrinsic and environmental variables important to the three aggression subscales were not entirely the same, but breed (P≤0.020) and physical punishment (P≤0.053) had significant relationships with all of them. Golden Retriever scored the lowest while dogs subjected to physical reprimands scored significantly higher on aggression subscales.

    Just to reiterate, by "punishment", these studies are talking about the scientific definition, which is simply something that diminishes a behaviour. It doesn't mean overtly cruel or unkind.

    Please have a good think about whether you would prefer to try a different approach, especially while your puppy is at such an impressionable age. It isn't hard or boring, it's fun - far more fun than simply walking from A to B. It's about playing games to get your puppy to want to walk with you, rather than forcing her to do so by stopping her doing what she actually wants. If you would like, I can put together a little video of the games I played with my puppy at that age, and others I still play now, to show you a different approach? My puppy is 11 months, but for many, many months, she has chosen to walk by my side for the majority of a walk, (which are 99% off lead) just because I'm where the fun happens. All through the two of us having fun together.
     
  11. JenBainbridge

    JenBainbridge Registered Users

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    I can totally relate to a pulling dog. I'm only little 5foot 2 and don't weigh very much and Stanley is quite strong when he wants to be.

    When we did what @snowbunny advises and just stopped caring, jumped around a lot, walked backwards and forwards up the street practicing, played tug in the street - IT WORKED! Now I just walk along twittering away to him, sometimes randomly turn around and he doesn't pull anymore generally (if he goes to a new place he does for the first few minutes or if he gets really excited).

    And I got this happy face walking next to me who was happy to be there..

    IMG_8988.JPG

    Then OH wanted to get involved and voila!


    IMG_9208.JPG


    It is hard work and it does take patience but it's SO worth it :)
     
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  12. Boogie

    Boogie Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    All pups will pull if allowed.

    We use a flat collar and simply don't move if the pup pulls.

    Pull - stop, ask for a 'sit' or turn tail. Every single time. I use treats for good walking and make the walks very short, they can't concentrate for long. I make sure I'm going nowhere! Having a destination causes you to allow pulling.

    I go to free run areas in the car until the pup is able to walk on a slack lead.

    All this works - I've had six pups now. All have wanted to pull, this method works. NO forward movement with a pulling dog. It takes total consistency, persistence and patience.

    Being more persistent than a pup takes a lot of doing lol.


    :)
     
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  13. snowbunny

    snowbunny Registered Users

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    I know the stop-start method works, and it's probably the method you're told to use with GD, Mags, but I don't think it's the best way, by a long way. What it leads to is frustration, on both parts, and a dog who doesn't pull because there's no point, as opposed to one who doesn't pull because he wants to be with you. I did the former method with W&S and got there, but it was hellish frustrating at times for us all. The "let's make this fun" method is far superior, in my humble opinion, because it's enjoyable for both ends of the lead and so strengthens the bond rather than having a dog and human who are both getting wound up.
    Not to mention it's so much faster! All my dogs walk nicely, but it happened so much quicker for Luna, starting this approach (almost) from the start. I still do stop and start on occasion, but it's a tiny part of a much larger approach to give her a positive emotional response to walking by my side.
     
  14. Stacia

    Stacia Registered Users

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    I taught my last puppy to walk to heel by doing it off lead in the garden, aimed for 5 steps 'at heel', clicked and rewarded. So he wanted to be with me with no restraint.

    I did use a head collar with my previous dog as he had to be confined in a cage and then small room for months due to an injury and not allowed off lead at all, even to go to the loo. So by the time he could be walked, he was a big strong dog with so much pent up energy, I found the Gencon the kindest one, all in one and simple, didn't ride up into his eyes.
     
  15. Jacqueline Mckendrick

    Jacqueline Mckendrick Penny and me

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    Thanks for the input
     
  16. Harley Quinn

    Harley Quinn Registered Users

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    @Jacqueline Mckendrick I really understand how frustrating and painful it is to have a puppy that lunges and pulls. When she was younger Harley would get incredibly excited to see other dogs. And I tried to be more interesting but I found it was a combination of stop when she pulled and trying to engage her that improved her on leash walking. But she would still lunge and pull intermittantly and I have an injury to my lower back so I really struggle with pain resulting from the sudden pull or lunge. Once Harley reached "full" size, so mostly her adult size we bought her a front attaching harness. It has been awesome! Firstly, Harley cottoned on very quickly that she wasn't going to make any distance on it and the intermittant pulling and lunging has significantly decreased. Has it completely disappeared - no. But she is only a year old now, it would be unreasonable to expect more. I completely agree that no one thinks you woke up and thought - how can I hurt my puppy, you made the decision to use this headcollar because you thought it would make a difference. But, and this is a big but - I don't know much about dog training but I do know a fair amount about human behaviour and there are two phrases that I use more than ANY other - the first is:trust the process, and the second is: people don't change from a place of comfort. Now, as humans we can comprehend discomfort in many ways but I can ensure you that discomfort spurs on change. But please note that I don't say: people change in a positive way from a place of discomfort. And that is a huge role that psychology plays. So what I am trying to say is that your pup may be changing behaviour but it may not remain positive, or it may have an unknown maladaptive side effect.
    I can see how much you love your pup.
     
  17. Boogie

    Boogie Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Mine must walk ahead, back legs by my leg, and not look at me so it's a different way of walking. But none have been frustrated because they learn to keep the lead slack really quickly. Keir is nearly there at 17 weeks. When I stop he just looks around at the sights - interested, not frustrated. :)


    .
     
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  18. snowbunny

    snowbunny Registered Users

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    I need to keep in mind that your pups are bred specifically for a purpose, and so can have slightly different traits to the average Labrador! I know for all three of mine, stopping and starting alone has been hugely frustrating at times. More so for Luna than the other two, because she has a very low tolerance for frustration, so I kept up with it for no more than a few goes before rethinking my approach. Stop and start alone was certainly very punishing for her and I will never again rely on it as a sole tactic because, for the average dog and handler, there are far more fun ways of achieving the same thing.

    You're absolutely right though, it would be completely pointless for you to train a puppy to be at heel and focused on its handler all the time - yours have far more important things to be doing, like keeping the handler from being run over :)
     
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  19. Jacqueline Mckendrick

    Jacqueline Mckendrick Penny and me

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    I really am greatful for all the advice and i should have said i have tried the stop /start method without much success i know its a combination of trial and error and i think my patience runs out way before Penny's relelentlessness ...i am a first time lab owner
    ( had a boxer for 11yrs) who is mostly left to try and train her on my own ( teenage daughter just wants all the good stuff lol)..its hard but she is a dream ( when she is not attached to my fingers lol) and i dont have problem waiting out the puppy stage and trying new things ...btw i have only used the figure of 8 lead twice i suppose i listened to other people ..thanks for everyone who posted advice xx
     
  20. Harley Quinn

    Harley Quinn Registered Users

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    @Jacqueline Mckendrick we are first time lab owners too, to make it worse she is our first dog as a couple (rest were ages ago in our respective childhoods) and we have had cats only for the last 9 years.
    All I can say is that just as having a lab puppy was a total shock to our systems, the nice parts came really quickly as she aged and developed a few more appropriate neural pathways. Today I took her to the vet, just to get deworming and flea&tick stuff and she was very easy and fun. We still had a few moments but wow- it is like day and night.
    You are going to have so much fun in a few months.
     

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